Refineries should be free but wait until they have produced 100 res before giving out res. To the commander this would be shown as the refinery powering up with a % indicator to show how much there is to go. Refineries will still cost the same, just this way the cost is paid after the refinery is placed instead of before.Pros: Can always place refineries to make a comeback. Cons: Could be confusing why refineries don't instantly produce res Alternatives: Refineries start producing res instantly Option to pay the remaining deployment cost Engineers should be able to place refineries. Waiting for the commander to drop refineries is tedious and boring, for the commander placing a refinery is often a no-brainer, you will (almost) always place the ref. If coupled with the above suggestion then there are no disadvantages to placing a refinery, if not then refineries are not spammable and an engineer can use up 100 res in other ways.Pros: Less tedious tasks for the commander to bother with. Cons: The 100 res cost could disrupt the commanders plans early on (if not free) Alternatives: Can't think of any
hmm... duno about first idea... might work i dunno... second idea I LOVE IT, I mean when wouldn't the comm want to place a ref? and certain places can even be a bit tricky to place refs in as comm (like inside that dam on that one desert map... dunno the name I am sure you know which I mean), where an engi would be so much easier to place it as
only problem i see is that it encorages placing refs just to get in the way of the enemy, such as on a contested spot, so that even if you lose, the enemy still has to kill your ref and wait for the black remains to go.
How is that bad? The enemy gets a rank point. Also, to counter that, if the building is not fully built and destroyed, it disappears right away.
The reasoning behind the first idea is that you should never be able to not win the game if the enemy team does nothing. At the start on cyclopean it is possible to waste all your res and be unable to build any refineries, knocking you out the game reguardless of what enemies do. This also helps the losing team on longer matches because the winning team will always have the res to replace refineries, while the losing team will not. This gives the losing team more of a chance to gain ground. I can't see how it is worse than turret + camera + wallspam + ammobox that you can do right now, although perhaps it would be better if all engineer buildables disappeared if not fully build when destroyed.
This seems to hurt early game because some maps have problems (like you said cyclop, you have no refs and 400 res). Aim for the beginning of the problem not the end result
I like these. The second suggestion is more important than the first IMHO, but the first suggestion makes the second one more possible (since nobody liked engineers placing refs if it cost res.) The only potential problem is that this could make the early game a bit faster (not slower, faster. Compared to how it is now, you are basically getting a free 100-res 'loan' from each ref you place -- so if I place all my starting refs on Cyclopian, I can immediately then build something that costs 400 res instead of waiting for my ref nodes to come online.) But I don't see that as too big of a problem -- it helps both teams, and I can't see the bonus res as being enough to unbalance things, given that it's a "loan" and not free res.
First suggestion only HURTS early game. If I own 3/4 the map I want my res flow sooner to get my tech advantage on the other team before they take refs back, I don't wanna be in debt because I had a good early rush
Why? You get the same amount of resources either way, this way you just get the first 100 res that it would have produced when you place it. If you build 5 refineries you save 500 res with this suggestion, in effect this is just the first 100 res that each refinery would give you given to you when you place it instead of waiting for it to produce it.
I can't honestly see how it affect early game either, and even in the event no one got voted in as comm the engis can still start to build out refs anyway, and even with a noob comm he wont waste the initial 400 res on a VF or something preventing the team totally from getting res
I think the primary concern is that the first idea will remove early game choice. Currently, the teams have to make a choice about what to do with their starting resources. Do they spend it on more refs? A forward barracks? Armory? It's these kind of decisions that make the gameplay interesting and create a layer of strategy instead of spam refs as fast as possible because they're free (initially). I would fix the main problem (some maps have no starting ref) by simply adding in mapping constraints. Natural Selection simply has code that automatically places a resource tower on the nearest node from your starting position. That way, you always start with positive income. Granted, this means you have to make some changes in the code to allow more than one starting ref, but I feel that's OK. The other option is simply a mapping rule that each team must have at least one starting capped node. That way you can't sabotage yourself by stupidly spending all your initial res and then have no income. The major change with this feature is that refineries would be forced to last longer and have no actual cost. If for example you kill an enemy res after 250 res is generated, in the old model the enemy team has lost 250 res (500 cost, 250 generated). In this new model, the enemy loses NOTHING. This means there's no reason to never place a refinery. There is NO COST. It no longer becomes a strategic CHOICE but instead a FORCED game move, something I personally hate in all game design. It is the concept of no cost except for time that turns people away from this idea. So, while in the long run the costs may equal out (delayed res generation) in the short run the no cost is fairly frightening.
Personally, I don't think that it's a strategic choice anyway. almost never will you be waiting on 100 res to be able to do something, at the very most it'll be just to decide whether to rush at the start or pay for refinaries, which frankly isn't a very tactical choice. I think that this will only open up gameplay at the start, as people will have a little extra cash. I'll let emp_recuit take this one... and the classic...
Um, refs costs 100 res, not 500. That isn't enough to make a difference except in the first few instants of the game. And the game shouldn't be decided by decisions made in the first few instants. We get enough of that already. Additionally, you would still have to wait until you'd earned enough to pay for that VF before you could use it, because you wouldn't get additional res until then. You're still wrong on how it would work. Let's say we have 100 res on hand, and rush out to grab a ref. In the current system, we now have 0 and have to wait until we've earned 100 from our ref before we've made it back up. In the new system, we have that 100 on-hand immediately. It is like a (very small) 'loan', one with no interest to it. You get your hands on res sooner. There is no way this can slow down your res production; indeed, the only possible problem is the opposite, that it is speeding up your res too much. An early rush can't put you in debt. Let's say you have 300 res on-hand and want to research something that costs 400. Building a ref under the current system sets you back to 200. You have to wait for the time it would take to recover 200 to research that item. Note (if you were worried about people wasting the 'loaned' res for the other example) that it is just as easy to waste that res as you gain it back -- neither suggestion makes it any easier to 'go into debt'. In the new system, you have 300 res, and must wait for 100 res, plus another 100 -- the exact same length of time. Nothing else is changed. The only situation where it makes any difference at all is when you're exactly within 100 res of affording something, in which case the new system lets you buy it a bit sooner. That's not a big difference. This works when you already have refs as well; I just explained it ignoring them because that's easier to see. The res you miss is the res you could have already spent. Any res that your team could 'waste', they could waste just as easily in the existing system (and may even get more opportunities, if you need something at that 100-res breakpoint.)
hehe, my mistake on the 500. I also agree that a game "shouldn't be decided by decisions made in the first few instants", but at the same time I want there to be real decisions with choice and cost. See the StarCraft model. There are many, many different strategies, each with their own subtleties, for the early game. There are also several interesting gambits that could cut the game short (i.e. swing the advantage wildly one way or the other depending on their success). However, all of this interplay and guessing and figuring out the best choice at each instant is what makes it fun and rewarding. Plus, StarCraft gives the players flexibility to alter and adjust their strategy, making it such that your first choice of when to build your first barracks doesn't cripple you completely. Removing choice tends to hurt that dynamic. Granted, I don't want choice for choice sake. Overloading the strategy with needless complexity (which is my major concern with the current tech tree), while perhaps balanced overwhelms new players and creates confusion, something you don't want at all in your game. As for your other point about the VF, I'm not sure what you're getting at. The commander is in no way in debt. You simply have a VF sitting in your base waiting for res instead of waiting for the res to drop the ref, then the res to drop a VF. As you point out, no particular difference in the isolated case. This, however, assumes the refinery is built and produces. In the case of early ref destruction, you would have been unable to build the VF in the first place. You essentially in the shortrun have "free" res that you pay off if the refs survive.
the real question is: "is the ability to choose whether to place refs at the start or in rare situations use the money otherwise real depth, or is it the illusion of depth in what is really not a very interesting mechanic." because if the commander isn't deciding to spend his money on refs or a rush, he'll be deciding to use it on turrets and a barracks or rush. so the choice is still there. in fact, what this tactic somewhat does it is means that you ALWAYS have the money for the rush at the start, instead of placing the refinaries and having to wait for a while before funds arrive. another important thing this change does is it means that no player ever has the boring task of waiting by a resource node for the team to get enough resources for a ref to be placed. if i had to list some bad game mechanics in empires, that'd be one of them. it's boring.
First idea is bad. Second idea could work, but only if it is an OPTION. For it to be a feature the comm would have to have some way to turn it on/off. If the comm had the power to allow it or deny it, and the default setting was to deny it, then I would like that suggestion. The recourse of having that, would be the engies would have to have extra interface for placing refs.
