A comprehensive list of people who should be raped to death by pineapples.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Space_Oddity, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    no just florida
     
  2. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Emotions are other electrochemical hibbertyjibberty in my brain.

    Everything I am, good, bad, purple, all of it is in my brain and it's a bunch of hideously complicated chemistry, biology, electricity, and possibly quantum entanglement if that new scientist article I read is true.

    I as a whole can object to certain parts of myself, I can desire, presumably with some bits of my brain, that other bits of my brain not think certain things or feel certain ways. I can also object to other people thinking and feeling and acting certain ways. I spend quite a lot of time doing both.

    Simply because everyone has internally consistent logic doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Logic after all is simply an agreed upon process of reasoning from given premises, it is entirely possible for me to disagree with the process of reasoning of another, or with the premises they base it on.

    Also as 'justice' is an entirely human construct, I can define that however I like too.

    Of course they are, that is what separates things that make decisions from random number generators.

    Generally one expects a decision to have some thought behind it, some reasoning, otherwise the general response is to call it a very stupid decision or a guess.

    I don't see why that precludes the existence of free will. You are perfectly at liberty to make decisions and act on them. Simply because the outcome is theoretically completely predictable doesn't affect your ability to make and act on decisions, an easy to predict decision is simply a very rational one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  3. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    If the world is deterministic and I know absolutely with infinite precision everything about of every particle in the universe, then I can predict the future absolutely and unerringly because the particles will follow a set of fundamental rules. I don't need to think to see the future, I just need to have a single snapshot. In a deterministic universe, the universe can be modeled by an incredibly complicated series of gears, pulleys and so forth. Gear A will turn gear B which will turn gear C which will turn gears D and E. There is no breaking this chain of events, and so the universe is constrained to act in exactly one way.

    If you can not break from this predetermined chain of events, how can you have free will? You think because synapses fire and chemicals react in your brain, but those only follow from previous reactions and synapses firing. Synapse B doesn't fire because you wanted it to fire, it fires because synapse A fired, meaning you don't have any control.

    By the way, I am absolutely loving this discussion.
     
  4. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    1) Free will does not exist
    2) Every action is based off a previous action
    3) Therefore, there was once an action based off absolutely nothing, which was the initial catalyst that created everything

    Kinda makes you revise theology.
     
  5. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    There's a distinct possibility that the universe was always there, just periodically collapsing into almost nothing and exploding time and time again.
     
  6. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Because free will does not need to be some magical external force outside the system of the universe.

    All it has to be is me, as a person, (specifically as a deterministic set of electrochemical reactions) undergoing the process of 'decision making' (which involves using my brain to weigh options and choose the most favorable one) and then being able to carry out that action, to achieve the desired result.

    I am inside the deterministic universe, you seem to be saying that free will has to be a universe-external decision, which is to say a decision made under the direction of some force you cannot observe if you were to observe the entire universe. But I don't see what the distinction is.

    If you observed the entire universe, but an external force influenced one of my decisions, why would that be free will? I am still making a decision based on effectors that change the chemistry in my brain, it's just one of them is not predictable by your observational capacity. Which is to say, it's exactly the same as it is now, because you currently cannot observe the entire universe.

    You seem to be defining free will as simply a universe-external force, but that is simply the same situation as my idea of determinisitc free will except you are arbitrarily drawing the observation/prediction line at within our universe. If it's something outside the observable universe affecting the decision, it's free will. If it's purely internal forces, it's not free will.

    Either free will is deterministic or it is completely arbitrary.
     
  7. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    I would argue that if free will is a force external to the universe, then we would not be able to influence it anyway, meaning that the idea of free will in and of itself is flawed. And if free will was a force external to the universe, then the universe would no longer be deterministic because I wouldn't be able to perfectly predict the future from the past.

    Decision making can't happen in a deterministic universe in the sense that you can choose what you want to have happen. You can think that you can choose between cake and ice cream, you can think that you can choose to rob a bank or not, but you don't actually influence anything because it was going to happen and it was destined to happen.

    Free will requires *something*, and I make no intention of defining what that something is, to influence the universe, and how this something affects the universe would have to be both influenced by creatures within the deterministic universe, yet would have to be unable to be predicted by the deterministic universe even if the universe had a perfect understanding of the state at a given point in time. If it was not influenced by the creatures in the universe, then they would have no control over it and free will wouldn't be free. If the deterministic universe could predict it, then it could be accounted for and used to determine exactly how the universe would proceed. In other words, free will requires an indeterminate force acting on a determinate universe which is paradoxical because then the determinate universe wouldn't be determinate.

    I'm curious if we are using the same definition of free will here though. I'd define it as the ability to make choices. If free will were to exist and you were to pick between cake and ice cream, then, for example, following from the previous state would have you picking cake, but free will would allow you to say "Fuck the previous state, I want ice cream."
     
  8. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I'm using the definition that is not inherently paradoxical.

    You seem to be saying that free will does not exist, for a definition of free will which is itself impossible.

    In which case... yeah? The by definition impossible thing does not exist. Humans cannot do logically impossible things.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  9. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    The definition of free will I'm using is paradoxical in a deterministic universe, but could fit an indeterministic universe. A force that we can control but can't know would allow us free will, the universe would simply be indeterministic then; we wouldn't even need to know that it exists or that we could effect it as long as we do effect it. The problem then from describing such a force is near the level of proving the validity of a higher power.
     
  10. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    The argument that you might not have free will is not an excuse for sticking your penis in a child.
     
  11. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    I don't think anyone is arguing that. My take is that if someone uses the reasoning that there is nothing wrong with acting immoral because there is no free will, then there is nothing wrong with punishing them for the same reason.
     
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    see candles, i told you its tricky (though i agree with what you posted as reply to my post) :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  13. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    An indeterministic universe would be pure chaos, where nothing follows on from anything else, and we obviously don't live in one of those, such a universe would be incapable of forming anything as coherent as life, intelligence, or a 'will' to be free. It'd simply be complete randomness, so the idea of 'free will' would be no less paradoxical in such a universe.
     
  14. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    Indeterministic doesn't mean absolutely everything is random, it simply means that universe can't be perfectly determined from a previous state. If randomness or a force that can't be perfectly accounted for existed, the world would be indeterministic. For example, if Brownian motion was actually random, then the world would be indeterministic, even though it would have almost no effect on the real world.
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    But the universe would have to be either entirely deterministic or indeterministic, because the difference is a fundamental one. You can't have a mostly determinisitc universe but one part that completely defies causality.

    For one thing, if it can completely defy causality, it would be completely random. As in, the non-deterministic force could, at any one time, be completely undetectable or alternatively, destroy entire galaxies at random, because there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't do such a thing and it needs absolutely no prompting, because it is not at all controlled by anything. Such a force would rapidly overwhelm the by defintion limited deterministic forces of the universe.

    If it wasn't completely random, then it must follow rules and limitations, and if it does that it isn't indeterministic, you just don't understand the way it works yet.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
  16. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    Imagine a magic box with a screen on it. This box has the constraints that it can not be opened, anything done to the exterior does not affect the interior, and the screen has an equal probability of displaying black or white at a random interval between one and ten seconds. It is therefore a self contained system with no inputs and one output. Although this box has constraints, it is indeterministic because it can't be known when or what color will appear. So imagine the universe is at a state that is perfectly known, except for this box. Light hits the box and if the box displays black, the light is absorbed. If the box shows white, the light is reflected. So after at least one second, it is impossible to know if the light was reflected or absorbed, even if you know everything about the universe at a previous moment.

    This box would render the universe indeterministic, but by no means would have the power to destroy it.
     
  17. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No, the box is perfectly deterministic, because it operates based on a previous state. If you could see how the box worked, you would be able to predict it. Simply because you do not know how it works does not make it non-determinisitc, otherwise the universe itself is indisputably non-deterministic because you don't know how it works right now.
     
  18. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    Unless it was completely random on the inside. Then you could know everything there is to know about the box but it'd still be impossible to determine its future state because its previous state wouldn't matter. The specific term for such a box would be a Martingale.
     
  19. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    If it was completely random on the inside then it would contain literally limitless power, and so the container would have to also be limitless, which is impossible in a deterministic universe, which must by definition be finite, in order to be completely knowable.
     
  20. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    Then how about partially random? Randomness doesn't have to be absolute, it can operate within constraints. If we imagine a perfect coin that randomly shows heads or tails regardless of its past state, then it operates within the constraint that it can't show anything other than heads or tails, but which one appears is still random.
     

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