☭Socialism!☭

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by blizzerd, May 11, 2016.

  1. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    How do you guys feel about socialism? not bernie sander's 'lets keep everyone fed, clothed, have a job and a roof' socialism also known as 'social democracy' but real full on socialism.
     
  2. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i think the term really is to broad to answer. i dont think theres a single idea of socialism thought out well enough so we could say "ok we switch to that" (but thats not what it needs anyway)

    this how i see it (or at least similar), i have a strong feeling that there should be noone below, and noone above anyone else and that we as societies should strife for this ideal - reality is gonna fuck us over anyway, and a vast majority is not ready in their thoughts yet - but in this sense im a marxist, i want a classless society.

    but also i doubt one could "install" socialism, thats only gonna end bad (as it did so many times before). its a development, even if it experiences a major setback currently (esp. in the "global north" where nationalist parties getting strong again), but i think in the end its an unstopable development anyway (unless we take the extinction route out).

    i think in the end its either gonna be no humans left (which currently is the more probably outcome) or some sort of classless society (= marx' socialism), i dont see how our current social order could possibly last to even only the end of this century, let alone further and definately not once its global. even the whole of china at the level of the US would put us in major trouble, "thankfully" a vast majority still lives in rural, non-modernized communities, but thats gonna change (and is already changing, slowly, but steadily) - its part of chinas big plan and nothing will stop them. in their new 5 year plan the development of chinas "hinterland" is top priority.

    its probably a question of can we overcome growth, the motor of capitalism, faster than it overcomes us. we wont be the first civilization extinct by overexploitation of resources, but we will be the last. also something always forgotten in political debattes, nature is against us, sustainability is superstition, its against physics - but since the laws of nature are the only laws we cant bend, thats something we got to live with. i dont think its a justification for just burning out as fast as we can, because thats what we currently try even if we dont even know we are because we are so held up with our little trivialities like does red fit my style better than blue and does it follow what marketing says would be "in" this year - decadence is stong in our societies.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  3. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    Extinction can never happen due to overpopulation without another factor. There's no way there's going to be more than 7bil people on the planet in 50 years time, but I find it impossible to believe that humans will become extinct. Please tell me which civilisation went extinct due to over exploitation of resources because that goes against all logic. It's more likely that the human population will start to decline due to lack of resources and lack of jobs, meaning lack of need for children.

    As for your classless state I think you are confused at what that means. Most countries in the EU are almost classless currently due to the fact that anyone born today can achieve anything. You don't have to be born into the upperclass in order to receive high income or become a powerful person in society. Classless society doesn't mean that everyone is equal, it means everyone is equal at birth. It would be ridiculous to strive for a society where everyone is equal as some people are just better than others in terms of capabilities. That's Marxist theory and it's a primitive state of society where all jobs are equal (simple) and everyone has to do their part. As soon as you involve creativity, problem solving, or mechanisation then you can no longer rely on communism to run society.

    As a side note I find your points very vague and full of tangents. It's very difficult to read and understand your point clearly. Most of it is hearsay and misunderstood concepts.
     
  4. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i said overexploitation of resources, not overpopulation (but its obviously connected as more people need more resources) most prominent representatives probably are nazca and rapa nui. and sure, it wont be extinction like 65mio years ago, where a majority of life got wiped off the planet in a few years. maybe a handful will survive, but i doubt we will just slowly die out without a big war and thats not gonna end up in favor of any of us. also dont expect it to happen the next couple of years, dont get me wrong. though ofc, noone would have expected ww2 to start in '39, its always an option that reality is on the outside lane already ...

    and no, our western countries are anything but classless. the social class still is the major deciding factor for our lifes (its blatantly visible in no matter what statistic you look at). sure theres exceptions, but you can count them on one hand and they had to show double the effort at least.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  5. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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    Socialism works on paper but is impossible to play out in real life. Humans are greedy, Humans mistreat each other, it is human nature. From a young age, we categorize differences in each other and we strive to have more than our peers. People grow jealous that while one person is working really hard someone else is slacking off and getting the exact same. Therefore, while socialism is great to unify humanity and bring about an age of peace, it will never happen.

    On top of all this, Socialism also doesn't really play well with Innovation. There is no competition, no need for innovation. The greatest inventions in human history have been made in competition and Socialism completely eliminates the idea of a competitive market/society. Humanity would stagnate as a whole and grow at a much slower rate in terms of technological innovation.

    To top it off, a socialist government is huge. This leads to more corruption, mismanagement of money, and waste.
     
  6. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    This is why we should embrace our robot overlords. None of these problems with good old robots leading the way.
     
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  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    speak for yourself, not for others. but its true, there are such people and they are a minority. theyre usualy either criminals or managers.
    from birth we get told our place in life, what differentiates us from others, and that we should strife for more. for some that may be "have more", for me it wasnt or at least thats not what i understood - i can be dense at times.
    the people working hardest get the lowest wages. there are people working 2 jobs who barely make a living and wont ever reach more. while someone who spent 4 more years in some school to get a job at a bank for example will soon drive a middle class car. thats not fair either, thats just keeping the close servants happy. not everyone can work at a bank, noone is gonna sell me schnitzel. and thats only in our respective counties and not the sweatshops which only just enable "our" way of life.
    curiosity, the term you search for is, curiosity. all major breakthrough in science is based on curiosity. i dont believe you believe this lie. its the same as "war drives invention". war destroys, curiosity made us end up where we are.

    competition is what brings you a new iphone each year. the foundations for it are curiosity though (and i dont mean jobs)
    yeah like thats unique to socialism, theres is no corruption, mismanagement or waste in the glorious usa? or do you want to tell me its a socialist country.
    so lets just agree to its not directly related either.

    i think for you socialism simply equals soviet union.
    thats why i said, its a very broad term.
    theres even people calling national socialism socialism.
    or obamas politics.
    our social democrat party members call themselfs socialists, though they are more like puppets of some lobby interests (ofc the top, not the base and they share the feature with the rest)
    its gotten a rather random word over the years, pretty meaningless.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  8. vipervicki

    vipervicki Member

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    I am not sure any type of socialism can work with over 300 million people, but I am not even sure what democratic socialism is, I do want people who can't obtain things for legitimate reasons to be helped and taken care of.

    But I also really like entrepreneurship and people having goals and working hard to reach them.

    I don't like federal gov't having a say in education or medical issues, that's up to each state but I do think the fed and state gov'ts have a place to help those who cant help themselves.

    So that's basically what we have in the USA (until Obama butted in) but it needs major improvements in all areas and a lot of waste and red tape and corruption needs to be gotten rid of.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  9. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    social democracy is the idea to be able to limit the effects of inequality by accumlation through means of redistribution while still allowing free enterpreneurship.

    it means you accept that people will have more if they can privately own resources and production but you make sure the rest gets a fair share. fair is considered lower in this case since the enterpreneur also carries a certain responsibility ...

    ... and then you introduce legal persons and this blows up ^^

    its no like its a twelf step program to happyness.
    its a way to look at things, for a real world application you would have to consider regional aspects, just burning everything down is the worst approach.
    so its not like, do this and done.
    its more like, first consider the weakest in society, they have no multi billion dollar lobby like those who could care for themselfs very well.
    if helping the weakest means taking from the richest, then it has to be done.

    edit:
    well and democracy to reach it, but i thought it was obvious.
    and its probably not congruent with the reality of social democratic parties in europe.
    its my own attempt of a definition.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  10. vipervicki

    vipervicki Member

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    Thanks for the explanation Flasche, I know its against what you feel is right but for me, maybe because its what I have grown up and lived with being here in the USA, but I think its unfair to limit someone's potential and growth. I don't see anything wrong with people educating themselves or learning a trade and working hard to achieve great success w/o limitations but at the same time I don't want anyone suffering or not living comfortably, but one doesn't have to be rich to live comfortably.

    I think that's what I would prefer, no limits on ,success but no one not living comfortably if that makes any sense at all.

    I think it comes down to what I would prefer is having free enterprise and capitalism as we have now so anyone can reach for the stars and succeed and live up to their potential, if they so desire, but the income level requirement for those who need assistance, raised dramatically so people can live comfortably and receive supplementation(so they do not live paycheck to paycheck)

    which would eliminate the poor class but allow anyone the chance to succeed as much as they can.
     
  11. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    sadly we only have one planet, there is a limit to growth.

    and we also are fully willing to limit free enterpreneurship where it threatens other peoples health.
    so there are sane limits and for me a few living off the rest is such a limit.
    but those few aint the poor, thats the bad joke in all this.

    the middle class is where no intervention should be neccessary (actually it shouldnt exist since everyone belongs there)

    though i doubt that, if you would consider this globally, we could keep this extreme consumerist lifestyle we currently follow.
    nothing of value lost if you ask me.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  12. vipervicki

    vipervicki Member

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    you are right in that the middle class get the shaft really badly. I know how it affects me and it sux, we are between a rock and a hard place. We make too much for financial assistance but too little to be able to pay for stuff w/o assistance.

    when I was growing up and was upset about something and would say Mom its just not fair, she would tell me, Vicki no one ever said life was fair. I guess that's the harsh reality of the world since time immemorial, life just isn't fair in so many ways and on so many levels. Good people get ill, die young, children suffer, animals suffer, reality is very harsh.
     
  13. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    so we just accept injustice because its bothersome like little kids can be when they dont get icecream?
    you cant possibly mean that. yeah life isnt fair, so? if that justifies anything then robbery is legal.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  14. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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  15. vipervicki

    vipervicki Member

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    why do you think it was about ice cream? that was a bit demeaning.
    I dealt with a lot of serious health issues when I was young as many others have.

    and I never thought I would say this but I agree with The Donald on all of his orange points.

    again before this thread takes a turn for the worst again
    this thread is not about socialism but about the Unites States Presidential election.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  16. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    its weird that you say that socialism would kill innovation and people wanting to create things... seeing that the soviets almost won the space race if not for government intervention by Kennedy moving tremendous amounts of money from all facets of the system to winning the space race... you know... big government and i guess socialism.

    Some of the greatest works in humanity, even if we count only the usa were made not with financial gain in mind.

    Capitalism in my opinion is the same as putting people in a fighting pit and throwing in scraps for them to fight for... it works on some levels but if its mandatory some people will just end up perpetually losing out while they do have their merits if given the chance.

    Im a social democrat myself, but id prefer hardcore socialism like the government in star trek over free market capitalism like the USA sometimes pretends to be and at least strives for.
     
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  17. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    When you can say 'life is unfair' see it as an opportunity to come up with something to improve life
     
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  18. vipervicki

    vipervicki Member

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    the bottom line is
    USA is a democratic republic, that promotes capitalism, you can try to promote socialism and try and convince people who don't live in a socialistic gov't its better, but most of us here in the USA don't agree and rather prefer to abide by our constitution which was written to protect the people from big gov't aka socialism.

    don't know why you all need to try and convince us otherwise.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  19. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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  20. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    who was wernher von braun?
     

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