Beginning to command

Discussion in 'General' started by MartinPL, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    there is no solution that does not need continous small tweaks, your pentagonal system also requires continous tweaking.

    but it comes with the additionl downside of a completely random first pick that could fuck over the whole team (and not only just 1 player like in your cardgame example)
     
  2. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    So you don't have a solution and just clinging to something that has been wrong forever.
    I already said my shit wasn't perfect but its incentives people to change their research every match.

    Vs your system where you just need to get the same shit every game and it works until god says use bio engine and regen.

    Good, that makes games shorter and more interesting. And removing the stalemate issue when both teams are veterans that doesn't boil down to who gets arty first which either goes both ways.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  3. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i dont see when we ever had small monthly tweaks, thats only something recent and we still are far from monthly. just look at the version history.

    also please explain to me how empires weapons fit into your beloved rock-paper-scissor system.
    lets take bioml, salvo homing, and uml. those 3 function completely differently. their chance to deal damage is completely different.
    or how would armors fit into it. would reflective, reactive, regenerative all be the same? because you know, they aint, but theyd need to.

    you did not think this through at all. you just have this idea of "ohmygoshiwantcounters" idea in your head, thats all.

    and my main point still stays. its a completely random pick that only shows an effect minutes into the game when its too late to switch already. its gonna be shit²
     
  4. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    You don't want me to tell you how to balance your weapons, that is your job.
    I gave the idea of counters, its your job to tell me how the weapons would counter each and every armor.

    Because if I told you what weapon counters what armor, this will go on for 10 pages of a circle arguing.
    It's just better for me to tell you guys to put in a counter system, and you say what counters what vs me saying what counters what.
     
  5. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    oh now thats a nice way out for you isnt it?

    you propose something, its your job to think it through to the end ...
     
  6. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Nope, I will take responsibility if the system ends up as complete shit because it was my idea.
    It's better if a 38 year old man who has played the game forever to balance the weapons vs me who only played for two years.

    You know how weapons and armor work better than me and ill concede to that, but you are wrong on how you apply them to gameplay.
    And that is what I am telling you, your game-play is fucking wrong try something new.
     
  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    trust me you dont want me to balance this game, everyone would hate it because their beloved tanks would die like flies if they dont care about them.
    also you seem to have a wrong idea who i am and what i do. i am not involved into the development of this game at all.
     
  8. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    I am treating you as a proxy for the real developer behind empires, who has been controlling the game from the shadows all these years.

    Mr. Die its a joke
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  9. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    now that was low
     
  10. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Hey man, I preferred if it was him arguing with me.

    Not you, but life is cruel sometimes.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  11. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I'll make one, and just one reply, on this "armor counters" subject.
    Don't bother quoting me because I will NOT give another reply on this subject and turn this into a "disagree to agree" debate. (I'll probably reply again next year)
    You either agree with me or you don't.

    As Flasche said we have discussed about this : https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/what-i-have-against-armor-counters.20669/
    Reply #25, it's basically a summary.

    Here's my reason that remains undefeated : In late game when both teams have 2~3 different weapons/armors, there's no way for you to possibly anticipate the loadout of the very tank that you will be fighting against.
    If you guess it wrong, you lose your tank.
    If you guess it right, you win.
    I am not going to make people research different things just for the sake of researching different things, and then let the luck play the game.

    Now, as for "flavor of the month" armor, I have grown up from trying to argue with people's "religion".
    Some people seem to have this "religion" that there is a best armor, or even a best research path.
    I am telling you, no, there isn't.

    Since 2.7.0, I've been trying to help "useless" researches, deny for all you want, but I think I have done the job at least 8/10.

    When we have far less "useless" researches, it is also very easy for people to think there is a best path because "hey, it works most of the time", same as when there's one armor that's outright better than other options.
    You can choose to always research Composite, or, always follow your "best research path", I will not stop you from doing that, it's your religion.
    I know it's also convenient to just blame your team when you lose, totally not because your "best research path" is not optimal under given circumstances.

    I am not saying everything is perfect now and I will stop improving them, no. But just as you'd religiously think Composite is the best armor, I religiously think there are reasons for you to research every single armor, and "griefing" is not one of them.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  12. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Might as well just embrace the shit meta of getting the same thing every game and put all the effort of putting depth into weapons.
     

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  13. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    To everyone in this thread, you need statistics before you can even try to argue one armor is best or another is weak as fuck.

    Without statistics theres no proof only subjective. This goes for everyone including security who thinks theres no best armor. Noone knows if there is or is not, but again if you look at the math the odds are bigger that there is an op meta armor than there is not.
     
  14. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Not saying you are wrong, but it's crystal clear that the odds are bigger that there is an op meta armor.

    That's not even "math", that's just common sense.

    You'd require things to be in the right places to eliminate the existence of an op meta armor.
    If you just punch in random numbers there would be an op meta armor like 99.9% of the time.
     
  15. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Im not sure what you are saying, but it sounds like you are agreeing with me?
     
  16. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    You literally just said "1+1=2", yes I agree with you.
    Let me translate what you just said into actual math.

    Suppose we have two sets,
    Set A : All possible scripts.
    Set B : Scripts that have an op meta armor.
    You basically just said, "Most of the elements in set A are also part of set B", it's true, I agree.

    But come on, we are not set A, our scripts were not being randomly generated.
     
  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Whatever happened to getting things based on team composition(as in who are the actual players on team), the map you're playing on, and what faction you're on? These are the only 3 things I ever consider when researching, people's opinions and supposed meta are poop in comparison to this.
     
  18. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    I said 1 +1 is 2 because everyone was basicly using empiresforum politics arguments without facts or stats.

    And I said set A is a thing because its litterally true, its almost impossible to make a fully balanced script. Thats why everyone single patch scripts change so saying there is no op meta is just near impossible. There is always an op armor or op what ever. Its quite impossible to fully balance a game, any game not just empires.

    Even if we dont have random output scripts, the non random output scripts are basicly infinite aswel.
    What we are comparing is the amount of numbers between 1 and 100 is infinite, and what you are saying is, yes its infinite but the amount of numbers between 1 and 2 is a smaller infinite.
     
  19. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    you all are puppets of mrdie. it has to be items that function exactly the same and are rockpaperscissor balanced or the game will die.
    only rolling dice is fun.
    wake up sheeples.
     
  20. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    If your system is superior, why is regen armor pointless to get and absorbent?
    Why do I always stand a better chance at winning the game when I get composite and 3 phase engine?

    Is it because regen and absorbent is shit?
    Is it because tanks that cannot chase other tanks to secure tank kills is shit?

    Because supposedly in your system, regen and absorbent are so supposed to be balanced.
    But in reality its not. I can completely ignore those two armors, and any engine that is not fast every single game because there is zero incentive to use them.

    Because composite and 3phase always win no matter the weapon combination used against it.
    Why would I give my team any other armor and engine when those two have a higher chance of winning?

    Also it was a fucking joke when I said that die shit. If you highlight the post you will see the "it's a joke."
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017

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