XP system

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Donald Trump, Nov 13, 2016.

  1. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I replied in my last post.
    It won't mess up people's perception of you. With Securities proposed idea, yes it would, with mine it won't. You simply get XP for everything you do during the game. It's an exponential rank climb based on how you perform in game that gives you a "rank" for others to see and help decide if a team is stacked or not. There's nothing here that will adversely impact others perception of you, at all. You can't go down, you can only go up.

    This isn't a competitive environment, Smurfs might be a thing but I really don't think that will be a problem. And even if there are smurfs, how is this a negative thing again? This isn't an ELO based system, this is literally an XP level based system so it's not like someone making a smurf is going to mess with you. As for the statistics, yea that's the ENTIRE point. It's suppose to help determine noobs from vets and allow people to be rewarded for continually playing the game.

    Are you seriously saying "pre-judging" is going to be a problem? The community is so small at this point that if you see a team with tons of your friends on one side and none of your friends on the other you scream out "FUCKING NOOB TEAM". There is already insane amounts of judgement, if anything this will make it less because you can easily identify a "stacked" game and call for admins to balance. Now, it's impossible to balance because you can't identify who has played before. Yea there might be someone who changed their name but is really good, the rank would carry over. Also, there's no point getting angry at a "rank 1" when they are brand new to the game and are learning. Seriously, you are arguing based off of issues already present in this community and somehow calling them problems that will occur under this new system.

    Alright MrX, Let's just undo every change in the past 10 years as well, go back to all the old models, undo any of the code fixes because I like the past as well! Seriously, we have to evolve. This isn't going to have people judge you. This is only a positive thing, similar to only having a "like" button on Facebook, no one will see your losses and your rank won't go down at all, only up. Even if you lose, it goes up because you did actions to garner XP.

    This is only a positive system that doesn't even mess with gameplay because its all cosmetic reward. Look at TF2... they were the first to adopt a cosmetic award system and look what happened, their population EXPLODED.


    Edit: I think you have my system confused with Securities. They are NOT similar in any way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  2. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    TF2 exploded because it went f2p. From the start of tf2 it was known they intended to make changing equipment and hats a thing, you really can't say that's what caused players to play. I have very good reason to suspect the reason people really like tf2 is because that gameplay loop here is simply addicting, it's an extremely fun game to play. Shocking concept right?

    I really have to say too, for a lot of games you don't simply unlock hats, you unlock gameplay. Battle field lets you unlock gear and weapons, Planetside same deal, TF2, which doesn't have an actual leveling system, hats and weapons. I actually can't think of a game that doesn't lock just hats under their leveling system.

    For all of these games if they are keeping players because of a leveling system it is simply because the player wants to either get that rifle of +1(shit system), or to play with something they may think would be fun(imagine if you couldn't drop turrets unless you hit level 4?). I know it's kept me playing a couple of games longer, and generally I end up enjoying the new thing I unlocked. I won't deny the temptation here, but I have always hated every dev that does this. People should just be able to play the game, they shouldn't have to spend time, to basically grind, doing shit they rather not do to get to the thing they want to do.

    That's in the case of classes and gear, simply better stuff is dicking over new players really really hard. And just makes balancing the game even more annoying. Could you imagine a great gren like zoom or hopfi with a mortar that had larger explosion radius? Or simply a rifle with a bigger mag for security or herbie? Awful, and as we found out with spartacus's shotgun debacle a super strong weapon doesn't even the playing field, it just makes great players unstoppable.

    Unlock systems are horseshit of the highest caliber. The reason the current promotion system and research is fine is because it really just gives a level of progression to the match. Research is fine because every player has access, skills are fine because you don't have to unlock any to able to use them, just use more of them. Even if vets can make twice as much points as a new player empires is actually pretty good at handing out points for simple team play stuff that doesn't require top skills, so it's not like they can't get more skills. Consider it more of a reward for being there the whole match.

    I'm bringing up all these points because hats alone don't do shit, so if you really think unlocking something is the way to go it has to be gameplay, and that's the biggest dicking over the playerbase a developer could do to be honest.

    ALL THAT SAID, simply leveling up is something I can actually see players doing. Sad but true, this still leaves that issue of vets or anyone with a high level yelling at new players just for joining the server, it's something I could actually see this community doing to a point. At least now the yelling doesn't start til the player goofs.

    Also I am laughing if you think empires is dying, a few years ago prime time was considered a 8v8 on canyon on saturday's peak. This had a lot to do with not being able to launch the game, but from my perspective of playing for the past few years empires is no where near dead, even if it doesn't look like it to me seeing sooooooo many new players instead of the usual old farts tells me that empires can keep going for a few more years.

    As an aside, it might be magical if that elo thing or just a simple win loss thing security mentioned wasn't actually public, just a hidden stat that maybe the individual players could see. That way you can have teams balanced but without the "boo hoo, look at all the level 1s on my team".
     
  3. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    TF2 exploded when it included items. I remember it clearly. I played on FUG servers, specifically 24/7 Convoy and I remember the day items were released, people were on, clamoring to get a shit ton of items. Granted, these items also played different and did change the gameplay, but it was still mostly cosmetic.

    I am against unlocking gameplay on ALL levels. It is stupid, hinders the game, and if someone were to pickup this game after someone else has had it for months, there would be a clear disadvantage to the new player.

    Unlocking skins I think is the only route we can go. We don't want to change gameplay by unlocking weapons, so that leaves us with skins. It is meant to be a reward, and to change the appearance of the combat a bit. Lots of people running around with different uniforms based on their level would be cool and rewarding.

    Again, I think unlocking weapons would be horrendous. However, I still think Unlocking skins would be our best bet. This is meant to be a reward for getting XP, a drive to keep players. People are quite motivated by skins, look at CSGO or Dota, people spend THOUSANDS of dollars for skins, literally thousand, in an attempt to get something that is "rare". People play the game in the hopes of getting those "item drops" that will have something rare, or open crates. I am not advocating monetizing, I am just saying Skins DO have a great pull, we would just approach the "unlock" system differently than most by rewarding it based upon your level.
    I think they do. Hats do quite a lot. People are SO motivated to get cosmetic items it's quite astonishing really. People spend thousands of real life dollars and hundreds of hours in game in an attempt to get a better looking item, what is to say they wouldn't spend more hours in a game to get it for free? This is just a reward for playing the game, it fills the whole reward loop I am talking about.

    I don't think people will yell more. Please, we already yell and bitch and moan when we see a team with people we don't know. It is truly sad that our community is like this. At least with a leveling system, noobs and vets can both identify when a team is stacked and call for players to balance it out rather than noobs all joining one team and vets all joining the other and the noobs having no idea why they are so bad and leaving.

    Decline it if you will, this is the general attitude of most Empires players. It's a very slow bleed, a bleed that is starting to inhibit playing. New players may come on in greater numbers giving us a "false" popularity boost, but there is no retention of these new players. These new players don't stick around, they don't stay, they don't continually play. I'd wager 1 in about every 30 stays, and thats over the course of a long time. Vets are continually leaving, never to come back or come back only when there is a 25vs25 match going on. This system is to retain new players by rewarding them for doing actions, like most games do nowadays.

    I do remember when 8v8 was the peak, but we don't want to end up back there again do we? This game is aging, it needs to find some other draw because going off of the appearance it drives people away. It also needs to adapt to the modern age of shooters, and bringing in an XP reward system would do just that.

    ELO would be the worst thing I could think of. A simple XP system gaining XP based on your actions and rewarding you with a new skin would be the best for retention of new players. Keep in mind, this isn't a system exclusively to judge like Security is saying, this is to help and retain new players.
     
  4. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

    Messages:
    10,552
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    0
    it should degrade over time, and degrade faster if you are higher level... in other words it should mean something of relevant skill, not historical skill
     
  5. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We can get into this AFTER it's been implemented, but first it has to be implemented. It is the best show we have at keeping new players, and I think it's worth a shot at bringing in newbies. Imagine a full server 24/7, or even going into overflow every weekend on another server... those would be the days.
     
  6. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I can't tell if you are intentionally not reading all the way through or being dumb. I see you keep missing my key point that I want it as a means to balance teams, and I suggested many things to go along with that idea. You want new players to stick around? How about making it not a stackfest. You yourself just mentioned how often it happens when everyone stacks, either vets not wanting to play with scrubs or new players stacking onto one side. Maybe, just maybe, if the new players have a better game experience they would like to stick around, yeah?

    My honest gut feeling is that for every 100 people that try this game, about 3 might stay around just to unlock hats. And once they are done getting hats? They quit anyway. Oh sure, pad it out and make it take 200 hours for that fancy hat that looks like an eagle, I'm sure these players just playing for hats will stick with all the shit flung in their direction or game after game of crap team balance.

    Ideas about the hat being lost because you aren't putting time into the game is also just plainly stupid for 2 super solid reasons(someone suggested this and im too lazy to find out who). When someone actually unlocks something they assume they have it for life, it's an achievement forever, no one wants to run on a treadmill just to look fancy. The much bigger point is the players who would have said hat are also so hardcore into empires hats are totally meaningless to them(though they would certainly wear it). Top spots are always gonna be taken, so this don't do shit for new player retention.

    I stand by the statement that adding a leveling tag to people's name won't really fix anything and has potential to cause problems Same with hats, though really that's more of a waste of time. Just like the with the tank destroyer you may have good intentions and they sound like it would work on paper, but the reality is it won't work and end up as a waste of time and bitter disappointment.

    I can't articulate my points very well, I know that, so I'm just gonna give up here.
     
  7. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I understand completely what you are saying. You are saying this won't matter and that it's having fair balanced games that will draw in people. Again, I agree. this system could help determine what's "fair" by allowing noob's to see if they are being stacked against. the problem now is noob's cant tell if they are being stomped in by vets, so therefore they can't call out a stack. with a ranking system, they could. I believe nuclear dawn had a system like this, where it showed a rank and noobs could call on vets stacking to stop stacking to make it fair.

    Also again I think you are underestimating the reward loop. it would be a big draw, especially if it could eventually include tank skins etc. People do get addicted by this premise and there could also be a reward for players who complete the tutorials to promote them to do it and learn the game before quitting. We could also use this as a system to prevent them from hopping in com until they complete a commander tutorial which then would unlock it for them. The possibilities are endless, but I don't see and downside that isn't already happening in the game.
     
  8. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Downside is the considerable time investment that I think would be better put towards making the game itself nicer in some way. Polish it up a bit.

    Also you keep missing that certain part of the key point I'm making, the whole "forcing into teams" thing. ELO, XP, W/L, all require teams to be forced into balance, if there is no force then nothing will change. It's why I made that small comment it might be a decent idea to actually hide ranks but use them to force team balance, people love complaining about everything but if it's one of those unseen parts of the game people will just go along with it, something else empires has quite a bit of.
     
  9. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There's a lot that needs polishing, but that's all that's basically been done for the last 6 years and it hasn't even appeared much better.

    We don't need to force. Like I said, nuclear dawn had a good setup where it displayed the rank, and then noobs could determine if they we're stacked against and ask for an unstuck or just sit it out. right now, noobs get stomped for no reason and vets have a slight idea of who's better. This system shows people who have played before, and therefore gives a general idea of balance. The whole concept of balancing now is on people you know, but there are plenty of non regulars who are good and could throw off the balance then. I don't think this would be an issue, because it already is a big issue that is present in the game and I only personally think this will serve to fix it.
     
  10. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    13,299
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    0
    you simply cant keep a game alive forever - aside of the random handful of hardcore fans - empires is over 10 years of age now. either reboot it with a complete remake or live with the few hardcore fans it has.
    also if 3500 look at it and only 100 download it, thats a pretty bad statistic for a free game - thats 2.86% and those 3400 not downloading it dont even know wheter there is a out of game progression system where they can earn some absurd uniform noone needs. they just look at pictures and think "meh". because lets be honest it looks meh.
     
  11. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Exactly why it needs a trailer as well. A trailer could show off these features to make it more appealing. Right now, it's just screenshots, no videos so no way a person can see what the game is like before downloading. I imagine once a trailer is put up it will fix that issue a bit.
     
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    13,299
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    0
    nothing in empires looks appealing. it looks rather bland, tone in tone, low res textures, empty maps, no fancy shader shenanigans - all that ... it looks like a game from 15 years ago.
     
    Xyaminou likes this.
  13. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lots of big open games lack a lot of detail, especially one that needs placement of buildings. People can see past graphics, though these could use an update, so long as a game is entertaining and learnable. no trailer to show features, a very lacking tutorial, no real reward for playing, these are all issues that are present.
     
  14. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    13,299
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    0
    examples please

    and even tho "graphics is not everything" is true, its THE major selling point. humans first and foremost are visual beings. what did people say about bf1? "wow it looks fanfuckingtastic" (and it does) why do big companies invest hundreds of thousands if not million into graphics? because its what sells. why do you want to make VIDEOS. because we are visual and (today) empires looks old and outdated.

    yes gameplay is important, the best gfx dont help a shit game, but they sell.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  15. Solokiller

    Solokiller Member

    Messages:
    4,861
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You should probably do something about the collision meshes for buildings not always matching the visuals, people don't like clipping through walls or bumping into invisible barriers.
     
  16. Ranger

    Ranger Member

    Messages:
    706
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hgfdfertfgbv. I will say it again. In my humble opinion which no one seems to care about, before advertising the product, it needs to include features that keep the game interesting. The game is old and lacks things as many have said. HATS and unlockables are a fockin waste of time and they will not achieve the desired goal. If you want an "infinite" "supply" of players, make steamcards, because 1. they require up to several hours to get all the steam cards. 2. adds value to the game. Chances of players staying are increased. BUT. If theoritically a dude comes in and sees all there is in empires in 8 hours, it's bad. Primary focus of empire should be the fockin tanks and weapons. It's just the wrong direction. Eternal silence died because they focused on infantry combat. IN A GAME WITH SPACESHIPS

    edit: tgdfxfehbu1
     
  17. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Most RTS games don't have insane detail because they have to have clear spaces for building placement. Granted, not the same as Empires, but the thing is Empires can't have that great of placeables because it needs that room for commanders to place stuff.
    I agree, we are outdated. However, sitting around here and beating the bush of "The game looks like shit, lets bitch on the forum" won't do anything to fix it. The coders can't do anything to fix the visuals, this is where they rely on the community for help which isn't contributing much. I could get us a new artist, most likely, but will the community accept him... idk seeing as he is currently banned.

    Also, yea people look at graphics, but a lot of modern games aren't relying on this anymore. AAA companies, yes, graphics are a HUGE focal point, but for indie studios... not really. People realize this is a mod, a total conversion mod to boot, which adds a lot to it. People are NOT expecting AAA graphics from it and a lot of games now have graphics that are slightly better than Empires or even worse. Hell, there's tons of games coming out with Terraria and Minecraft level graphics, Empires even beats them out. We can't keep using the "graphical" excuse as the excuse for not wanting to help the game, because it simply doesn't work.

    They do sell, but there are LOADS of other things that can be done to fix this issue. For example, I am redoing all of the sounds. Great, I just updated an important aspect of the game that makes it more appealing to people.

    People keep saying "The time would be better spent on something else" like what? No one has said anything else. If it's fixing bugs, great, as Paradox said it's bugs that we have played with for a very long time that aren't really game breaking. This is to draw in new people, why is our community always so resistant to new people, especially from people who rarely play in the first place? You keep trying to dictate this game when you rarely play, if you even do, and you keep pushing away change in the game that would be positive towards keeping new people.

    We need to face the reality. We are fighting a losing war here and unless some flashy gimmicks are added to make up for the "graphical" aspect of the game, it's a sealed fate.
     
  18. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We have a whole sub forum dedicated to things that would be nice to have in empires, it's called feedback. Which reminds me, what's there to test with this suggestion you are making? Shouldn't this be in the same forum where all the other ideas get talked about for ages?

    There's quite a bit of detail in games like RA3 or even 2, Warcraft has loads of detail also. Honestly a lot of rts have a fair amount of detail for what they are doing. If we are talking crysis levels I would say this has more to do with optimization then anything really, from the perspective of high up you really couldn't see the fine detail in rocks or bushes like you can in a fps, so of course it doesn't look as super amazing. The more decent ones do let you zoom in and see all the nit and gritty though, it's pretty cool. Ideas about needing space to place things sounds more like the devs were idiots or are trying to use that as an excuse not to put as much work in graphics(which is a fair enough excuse to be honest, art is a lot of work).
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  19. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    13,299
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    0
    it has less to do with lazyness then with limitations. and i doubt you will find many artists willing to invest the time required to do shit for source - its workflow is just incredibly old, outdated and its a struggle to do anything.
     
  20. Ranger

    Ranger Member

    Messages:
    706
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    0
    More vehicles hardly require any modeling. Just weapon models. Then code support for chassis customization like turret no turret/ different turret ml turret. then all possible type of weapon combination can be made through coding with a new framework. That's doable and it's worth it. Also needs a new UI.

    making a ranking system for current empires and expecting people to play because of this system is like serving a huge brown cake made of shit and expecting people to eat it. Instead make a small chocolate cake.
     

Share This Page