Fixing the "Slippery slope"

Discussion in 'Game Play' started by Omneh, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. Empty

    Empty Member

    Messages:
    14,912
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Disagree, research is expensive and any step behind in research is a disaster for the team, in general it doesn't matter what you do territory wise, research is the deciding factor, it might stay with you permanently but that doesn't make it effective.
     
  2. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That statement doesn't even begin to make sense to me. You claim multiple conflicting points.

    1: You claim that research is expensive
    2: You claim that any step behind in research will doom you
    3: You claim territory doesn't matter.
    4: You claim something isn't effective, but after talking about research. I can only assume you are talking about taking territory, because otherwise you are directly conflicting yourself in a dozen ways.

    If research is important and costly, then wouldn't territory be extremely important as that is how you get resources?
     
  3. Empty

    Empty Member

    Messages:
    14,912
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's expensive to constantly research, and it's expensive to replace a lost radar, you can do it with 1/4 of the map, but you won' tbe able to field tanks.

    What I'm trying to say is, even if you have 3/4 of the map, if you're behind on research the enemy can win, and if you're in 1/4 of the map and you have no research, it doesn't matter if you retake 90% of the map because you've still got no god damn research, so if things do even out to 50/50 the enemy will have apocalypse tanks 5 minutes before you.

    You downplayed researches importance, and overstated territories.
     
  4. Sheepe

    Sheepe Member

    Messages:
    646
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Empty is right that you are understating the effect of research. However, research generally yields diminishing returns.

    Why? Well because once you get past the basics, each new armor, engine, and weapon isn't as huge an improvement. Additionally there are roughly 3 or 4 useful paths to take through the research tree.

    A solution may be to make the research tree dynamically lock up
    ie: You can research HE and Meds, but not heavies. Or you can go for composite and gas turbines, but get only one or two other engines/armors...
    Then if you have the change strategies, you could sell back research to open up the tree more and then if you re-buy it, it would be at half cost and zero time or something...

    Just an odd perspective
     
  5. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

    Messages:
    9,482
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Or give everyone their own research tree to do and let them pick what they want to use.

    A lot of strategies are only invalid because they don't work if everyone uses them, but bio weapons are grand if you mix them with conventional guns, rails make great hammers if you have other tanks to take the hits, homing makes a great support weapon if you have a main damage dealer, HEMG makes a good anti-light-tank weapon if you have solid battle tanks.
     
  6. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

    Messages:
    2,291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    IMO Robotek is right with his figures.

    The number one thing which gives you most boost to winning is territory control because:

    1. Territory control = amount of money income.
    2. Amount of money income = amount of tanks on the field at the same time.
    3. Amount of money income = speed of researching (before the cap where research is being done constantly.)

    And Empty, you indeed conflicted with yourself multiple times. Territory control is the most crucial thing in the empires because that will give you the most crucial item in the game to you, that's money.

    The most crucial next item you can buy with this first item, money, is research.

    Edit: Chris you're right that diversity beats simplicity but in normal Empires matches you have time and money to get only one armor, one engine, 1-2 chassis types and 2-4 weapons before the game starts to be over. So... usually that doesn't happen what you described.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2009
  7. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

    Messages:
    10,552
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    0
    a lot would be solved if the maps where bigger or the tanks where slower
     
  8. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    13,299
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    0
  9. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am not sure how I undervalued research here. I simply gave it a casual relationship.

    My solutions should hold, for the most part, true even if research was very important or only somewhat important. The basic problem is that every advantage in the game is presented with proportion to resource gains, except for the very weak advantage of being able to field infantry.

    In order to rectify this, there would need to be an increase in the importance of infantry, either on defense or offense (being able to beat attacking tanks or being a real threat to the command vehicle), or there would need to be bonus' to both teams related to the current time of the game, rather than the resources accumulated. Examples include salaries and research points that would be given automatically regardless of the status of the team.

    In theory, I suppose, you could also institute 'Social security' and tax half of all player's incomes, and use the money you get from that to fund you if you ever go below half of your highest income.
     
  10. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And thus a huge problem with Empires. While there is great beauty to the tech tree in terms of combinations, the game's over before you can really exploit them. Heck, a solid LT rush with 3phase engines can end the game. It doesn't matter that a fully researched tech tree is an elegant and beautiful thing with deep complexities, we almost never get there. And if we do, we're stuck in an eternal deadlock because the other team has all the tech too.

    Frankly, the complexities of the tech tree should be streamlined. The locking up system actually sounds interesting. Kind of like the Company of Heroes role selection system. Let some team members go Electrical, one goes bio, etc. Unlocking Chassises could be a team effort (i.e. player dump into a pool).


    Yeah, but the devs have fought tooth and nail against scaling the game to make larger maps. Unless the new set of devs are more open to the idea. I'd personally enjoy Empires much more because the maps could actually contain some complexity to them.
     
  11. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I really don't understand why people argue for solutions that are completely unrelated to the problem. Locking up the system doesn't allow for additional complexity, it restricts it. Admittedly, slowing down the vehicles helps fix the problems the game has with one team dominating, because larger territories would become even harder to defend, but it doesn't do so in a huge way.

    I am going to make a different topic on the diversification though, it shouldn't be discussed here because it is a different problem.
     
  12. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The locking system is a tangent, admittedly.

    As far as the scale of maps/tank speed, with proper map size and complexity you can create maps where pushing out into enemy territory will be disadvantageous. For example, it leaves your flanks exposed or perhaps they will have better locations to ambush from. Slower tanks will also help prevent them from being such a large dominating factor in the games, meaning the losing team with fewer tanks can still organize a counter attack using infantry to take down tanks. Plus, if tanks rush one part of the map, they can't respond to a counter push on the other side, making flanking more viable.
     
  13. bokan

    bokan Member

    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What about making the tech tree more rock-paper-scissors esque?

    I know there is some measure of that now, in the sense than certain weapons are more or less effective based off of the armor they are hitting, but if it were more extreme then you would have commanders actually responding to each other's research, and it wouldn't be so much a rush for heavy tanks, but would instead be a struggle for the comms to counter each other's research. It also might be interesting to add an ability for the scout that would tell you what sort of tech was in an enemy vehicle. Using this ability on the enemy radar could even tell you what the commander was researching and had researched.
     
  14. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bokan, without addressing other core game elements this would cause even more extreme problems and likely feel very forced. I already dislike the RPS-style that they are currently attempting to implement with the armor. I feel that rather than being competing gameplay styles it would be competing arbitrary decisions.

    If it was just implemented now, with the momentum existent in current research, it would likely just encourage people to focus on tech paths that had a great number of options or were the obvious counters to their enemy (anti-missile for BE, anti-cannon for NF). Nothing would change except the particular balance at the moment because changing your research goal takes too long. If it was a powerful enough trend to make it worth it (double effectiveness, lets say), then the team that happened to choose poorly would simply be crushed before perusing an alternate tech path. It changes early game balance a bit but does nothing at all for the 'slippery slope'.
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

    Messages:
    9,482
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Which is why I said:

     
  16. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

    Messages:
    2,291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And how that would be controlled?

    People would get their own money reserves too? Basically, one person could have nuke heavies, other rail heavies and third ER arty...

    Not to meantion total overhaul of research tree code to be visible to every single person and being indepentend of others. And the fact that how much it would change Empires towards more soloing even Empires tries to be teamwork based game.

    Do you really believe that as true option? I'm not.
     
  17. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Let's move separate tech tree discussion to new thread plz. thnxbai.
     
  18. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

    Messages:
    9,482
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes, yes, no, and yes.

    Being forced to use the same tank as everyone else does not encourage teamwork, however being forced to choose between tank types does encourage people to stick together. If you want a specialist tank, you need other people to cover your weaknesses, as you can't unlock both specialist and generalist equipment easily.

    As it stands, specialist tanks are always impractical, because you need generalist equipment because everyone has to use it, however if everyone chooses their unlocks everyone can choose their own specialisation and overall, make a good force.
     
  19. Sheepe

    Sheepe Member

    Messages:
    646
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Chris, the more you describe this idea, the better I am liking it. Please, do go on
     
  20. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Moved individual tree discussion to new thread.

    Enjoy.
     

Share This Page