Syo Much Content Today at 19:58 I provided two suggestions on balancing the game which either provides more depth or removes it. Needs to be workshopped. But I think the game would be easier to balance if you remove some things or provide reasons for somebody to get something else over something else that isn't based on situations. Like that dreadful pentagram system told you about years ago or simply removing armor and engine balancing and have slider on what type of tank you want and weapon. So everyone gets the type of tank they want without negatively affecting the other people on the team. When the commander researches something, the team has to use or it's nothing at all. I want a fast moving tank that does damage, but im trading it for no armor and heating. Or I want a tank that can sit there in stay in fights but do no damage and moves slow as shit. Everyone has their own idealized version of a tank and certain research. It would streamline the research. Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:03 Emp_sv_research_complete 1? Syo Much Content Today at 20:03 And make it less complicated for commanders and give them more reason to focus on the battles. Its more along the lines of you got 3 sliders and you just move it left or right and depending on what slot each slider is on determines what kind of tank you spawn trade damage for range speed for armor heat vs maneuverability Its gotta be worked on but its an example. And it eliminates the decade problem of everyone using the same research meta every single script change and patch. Everyone uses compo, compo gets nerfed and now everyone uses reactive. They just simply pick what armor and weapon type they want and adapt accordingly to the battle based on results of past failures or whats working. The other method wad the pentagram system of counters which always forces people to get different research because if you always go electrical somebody will go physics and just counter everything so im going chemistry and going to try to counter their predicted physics route. Balancing is a fucking nightmare So why not remove the complexity from it so its easier to balance Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:07 Were you the very guy I talked to regarding this? I still don't think we can't elimiate the "decade problem" with the current setting, just needs a little more work. Also I disapprove "hard-counter" with serious reasons. Syo Much Content Today at 20:07 Those were the ideas I came up with atleast Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:08 Is that "hard-counter" you are suggesting in the end? The last few sentences. Syo Much Content Today at 20:08 Weapons that counter certain armors and engines determine how fast and slow a tank is. So a physic gun counter a bio armor but a electrical armor neutralizes a physics gun forcing them to get a bio gun for example. Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:09 Okay. Give me a sec. Syo Much Content Today at 20:10 I don't know what should counter what but the picture in my head is a pentra grambecause it matches the 5 sides of the resarch tree on the main menu. Sgt.Security Today at 20:10 https://forums.empiresmod.com/index...ainst-armor-counters.20669/page-2#post-537836 What I have against armor-counters. | Page 2 | Empires Mod Ive suggested this before, when you sab the enemy radar you get to see the research they have gotten till then This is a very simple example of what... Reply #25, give me your feedback. Syo Much Content Today at 20:11 You already gave me your feedback. I know im not the only person to suggest this. This is just repeat of argument I had with you but its you vs somebody else. Sgt.Security Today at 20:12 Yeah, I know for sure this discussion existed. Syo Much Content Today at 20:12 I had it with candles and he said similar shit. But there will always be a go to armor and engine if you want to stop that from happening. Make something that decentivizes from getting it outside of situational. There will always be a majority of a certain situation than another. Speed is always the issue. I need to go fast or im fucked. That happens more than, I am overheating and dying too quickly Sgt.Security Today at 20:14 I have to be dead honest here, I am still not convinced that we can't balance ""the current setting"" to the point that most researches are viable and usable in different cases. At least for the works I've done in the past 2 years, I am getting even more positive on that thought. Syo Much Content Today at 20:15 Im still getting reactive and 3phase though because it gives me the best results I get advanced coolent where people don't have maneuverability. But I dont play those maps a lot compared to open space maps Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:16 Yes but, I did hear from other comms that some other thing is better, and with the exact same reason "I just feel like I win more with that". I am not to question your credibility, I am just saying you are not alone in this case. I am not saying we ARE at the sweet spot. Syo Much Content Today at 20:16 Exactly Sgt.Security Today at 20:16 But, I still think we can try to reach that. can STILL try, not ready to lose all hope. Syo Much Content Today at 20:16 I think the easiest way to do that though is decentivse me from getting it outside of it being situational. Have more contributing factors. Than just it works in these instances because those instances happen more than other instances. This is why I also came up with the slider idea. Remove the complexity entirely and just boil it down to personal preference. Both ways are the easiest way to balance this problem. Like wouldn't it be nice if you had a commander than paid attention to the team more often. You can do that by removing one of the plates they have to balance Giving them more wiggle room. If I don't have to worry about research builds and just focus on getting you meds, heavies, and arties. I have more room to give you attack orders, place buildings respond to ref calls, organize. Hell you can put the tank chassis behind timers meds 15 minutes heavies 30 minutes arties 45 minutes They unlock as the game progresses. And the timers are determined if my radar is up long as my radar is up it slowly unlocks the next tank tier. I love plasma. But I never get it. Because my team hates plasma but if I was on the field in a tank I would want plasma and play a support tank. And be that guy that helps my team get tank kills. Treat tanks like counter strike load-outs I mean everyone gets what they want. And you can treat each weapon like a gun like in a first person shoot Im tired Sgt.Security Today at 203 Might be a little too late but you can do a forums thread. I mean it's unhealthy that stuff like these (doesn't matter if we will ultimately use them or not) just gets flushed after a few days. Syo Much Content Today at 205 *crying is induced Sgt.Security Today at 206 At least on forums I can still find the ELO system I suggested 7 years ago within 20 secs. Syo Much Content Today at 207 Im tired man I spent two hours yelling at a discord box just copy and paste my 2 hours of mindless ranting and make it a thread Thats 100% what my threads usually are My fever dreams manifested
I edited out the part I called security a crpytid asian that sounds like they are 7. Because I felt it didn't add to the discussion.
You look like a forum moderator who deleted a porn link and write the exact same porn link in your reply just so people know that you deleted a porn link. I guess you just couldn't resist the tease.
PYA Today at 01:28 Jesus Christ @Syo Much Content I can barely parse this god damned thread could you please put it into paragraphs and points But from a quick scan, you want a slider-pentagram style tank customization and maybe chassis behind timers? So, like directly setting the balance of the tank instead of guessing, and to strictly enforce progression? Syo Much Content Today at 010 Its suggestions for two completely different systems One system using the counter method and the other eliminating the need of researching of armors engines and weapons PYA Today at 012 ? Syo Much Content Today at 012 Bruh its completely separate from each-other They have no relation to each-other PYA Today at 012 Er, I mean the first part Oh Ohhhh Syo Much Content Today at 013 Are you familiar with magic the gathering PYA Today at 013 You mean current system with time restrictions? or, maybe a slider system Kinda? Something about tapping mana to play things Syo Much Content Today at 013 When MTG first started off it had 5 elements and each element countered one of the other elements and neutralized another We have 5 trees Just like MTG did PYA Today at 014 Ahhhhhh. Syo Much Content Today at 014 That's the counter method The other method is some weird bullshit I came up with using a slider where you drag a bar left and right and trying to figure out if you want more of something vs the other And you customize your load-out with it You have to sacrifice armor for speed You have to sacrifice cooling for maneuverability You have to sacrifice damage for range vice versa Or you just can leave your slider directly in the middle and have an adaptive tank PYA Today at 016 Ahhhhh. Okay. I get ya Syo Much Content Today at 016 You simply customize your tank loadout and style using the slider And you can create these pseudo tank classes like glass canons, actual tank tanks, snipers, scouts PYA Today at 017 Hm, not going to dismiss your suggestions due to radicality but thinking about it.. Syo Much Content Today at 017 it needs to be workshoped(edited) PYA Today at 017 Some potential pitfalls that need to be addressed Basically, you may end up in the same situation we are in currently Syo Much Content Today at 018 I literately came up with two days ago PYA Today at 018 I realized Syo Much Content Today at 018 Even if it doesn't even get looked at, some bits and pieces can be salvaged from it such as armor and engine sliders. Trading speed for armor, or cooling vs maneuverability and handling. PYA Today at 018 What's immediately coming to mind though, is there may be a .... "first order optimal strategy" That will basically defeat the purpose of the system In essence, think M203 in any shooter with it Syo Much Content Today at 019 The fuck is a m203 PYA Today at 019 Underslung grenade launcher Basically it let you just, kind of fire an impact grenade immediately in most games it is present in So new players just, grab it, and "noob tube" the enemy Usually kills the other guy and it requires minimal skill So, like you can master other skills to get around the noob tube, but Syo Much Content Today at 01:40 The issue is mostly that people keep using the same armor and engine regardless what is shooting at them because it simply performs better compared to others. PYA Today at 01:40 That single strategy was optimal, for new players, and to a degree against most things it wins Pretty much, yeah Syo Much Content Today at 01:40 And that keeps changing every patch So Make it a slider I want more armor vs speed PYA Today at 01:41 What I'm saying is that, the meta will also fix in place with the slider system I'd think Syo Much Content Today at 01:41 or speed for less armor PYA Today at 01:41 I think anyway Because I suspect either, the balanced tank will win out Or you just have tons of "extreme" tanks Syo Much Content Today at 01:41 Maybe eliminating armor and engine research all together and just having weapons PYA Today at 01:41 Maybe. There are definite advantages Currently the system is both undocumented and esoteric as fuck Like we have no idea what is good research Syo Much Content Today at 01:42 Good research is situational research PYA Today at 01:42 With this it'd be clear as fuck Syo Much Content Today at 01:42 Problem is the same situation keeps happening PYA Today at 01:42 Agreed Syo Much Content Today at 01:42 Hence why we keep using the same armor and engine PYA Today at 01:43 I think though, that's caused by two factors Syo Much Content Today at 01:43 Because it works for this situation PYA Today at 01:43 Well, 3? Yeah.. See, we don't have enough situations, enough research variety, and information on research I think problem #2 will solve problem #1 though Syo Much Content Today at 01:43 Hence why I suggested the counter idea PYA Today at 01:43 Yeah. But that's, I feel like the opposite direction in which we should be going HM. I only really know RTS from like Starcraft, but Syo Much Content Today at 01:44 The issue with the counter system is that you wont be able to tell what armor and engine they are using. Weapons are the only dead give away PYA Today at 01:45 Armor detection could turn into status detection and you'd just have a read out. Just needs a good GUI Syo Much Content Today at 01:45 Thats one way I hoped of different models for tank chassis so if I get bio armor PYA Today at 01:45 That's a bit tougher due to a lack of, okay I can do it lol Syo Much Content Today at 01:45 the tank middle part will have this weird nano armor hull PYA Today at 01:46 I don't know man, I'm kind of in favor of Axeman's idea Syo Much Content Today at 01:46 What was his idea PYA Today at 01:46 Along with more research options Doctrines! Syo Much Content Today at 01:46 The fuck is a doctrine PYA Today at 01:46 Let me link you his thread https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/suggestion-doctrines.21156/ This to me feels like the best way to adjust Empire's commander gameplay Without too radical of a change. Your proposed ideas are at their core a paradigm shift. Which is fine, it's just we have to evaluate them. I feel like with this I can see how it plays out without having to test it Syo Much Content Today at 01:47 Okay axeman is on drugs I knew that but still... PYA Today at 01:47 This is a really good idea It means both sides can now choose Between light tank or AFV That sort of stuff Syo Much Content Today at 01:47 The issue is that he played company of heroes for a day PYA Today at 01:47 I hate that game Syo Much Content Today at 01:48 Me too PYA Today at 01:48 But, nah man Think about it Syo Much Content Today at 01:48 But its the rts that introduced doctrines PYA Today at 01:48 Research is underneath Doctrines Doctrines allow certain research But, there'd be a general path for research Syo Much Content Today at 01:48 That plays into the counter idea though PYA Today at 01:48 That you can modify Exactly! Syo Much Content Today at 01:48 So basically builds Not doctrines PYA Today at 01:48 But it's not a huge modification of the current game, you'd still have individual research items Syo Much Content Today at 01:49 He just used a different name PYA Today at 01:49 Eh? Sounds cooler Syo Much Content Today at 01:49 These are builds PYA Today at 01:49 Like, with Starcraft you can eventually get everything Builds came from, getting stuff at specific times Syo Much Content Today at 01:49 This locks you out from getting everything PYA Today at 01:49 Doctrines would be a game-play enforced path Yeah. Which I, think I like better? I don't know maybe Could just do what SC did Syo Much Content Today at 01:49 The issue though is that one of these is going to simply be better because one of them compliments the most common situation PYA Today at 01:50 Hm, see I don't know about that. Syo Much Content Today at 01:50 Mobility PYA Today at 01:50 Well, Axeman's specific suggestions. Maybe not But the concept at a high level, yeah. Because you can make the doctrines pretty extreme Syo Much Content Today at 01:50 A tank that cant run away is a dead tank. A tank that cant chase cant kill another tank PYA Today at 01:51 Yeppppp Syo Much Content Today at 01:51 This happens all the time This is why we get 3phase And get reactive because its right next to 3phase PYA Today at 01:51 What if we had engines that gave temporary speed boosts but were overall slower? Syo Much Content Today at 01:51 Thats just a turbo button PYA Today at 01:51 Yeah, but short. Syo Much Content Today at 01:52 Right but thats what turbo does PYA Today at 01:52 I'm basically saying we should steal more shit from MechWarriors Syo Much Content Today at 01:52 temporary speed boost like the jeep PYA Today at 01:52 Yep Syo Much Content Today at 01:52 I don't think mechwarriors PYA Today at 01:52 But like, another knob right Syo Much Content Today at 01:52 should be the thing we steal from PYA Today at 01:52 Because now depending on the details you can survive with a slow tank Syo Much Content Today at 01:52 We should be stealing from our counter part The thing that inspired empires in the 1st place PYA Today at 01:52 Battlefield? Syo Much Content Today at 01:53 Battlezone https://store.steampowered.com/app/624970/Battlezone_Combat_Commander/ PYA Today at 01:53 Oh. Syo Much Content Today at 01:53 This was empires before empires PYA Today at 01:53 2018? Syo Much Content Today at 01:53 remastered PYA Today at 01:53 You know, the early 2000s had a bunch of these large scale battlefield games. There apparently is another FPS/RTS that's fantasy themed Can't remember the name Syo Much Content Today at 01:54 Savage. Its a good game. Its our sister PYA Today at 01:54 Yeah that game Syo Much Content Today at 01:54 https://store.steampowered.com/app/366440/Savage_Resurrection/ It just doesnt have tanks everything is just infantry and classes. Similar to natural selection PYA Today at 01:55 I've seen but, uh yeah I think we really just more research variety. To start off but if we were going to change the system entirely I'd be down to test out sliders or hard counter systems. But I think having more research options and maybe more knobs to tweak on things... Like tanks having turbo, or maybe shit like modern tank features like turret stabilization whilst driving Syo Much Content Today at 01:56 mobile turrets PYA Today at 01:57 Yeah, stuff like that. Or like multi-person tanks Syo Much Content Today at 01:57 They grow legs and become spiders PYA Today at 01:57 Hehe Syo Much Content Today at 01:57 A moving level 3 PYA Today at 01:57 Also, like armed jeeps. Like you can commit to guerilla warfare and get armor, and like an MG slot on a jeep Syo Much Content Today at 01:57 scary until you throw a tank at it PYA Today at 01:57 Yeah lol Syo Much Content Today at 01:58 Right now im just focusing on features PYA Today at 01:58 Maybe have things that adjust the handling on a tank too. More knobs Syo Much Content Today at 01:58 Im not going to touch script balancing. Because fuck that. Ive just provided a few suggestions to remove that deep core issue that the game always had of established armor and engine PYA Today at 01:59 Yeah. Syo Much Content Today at 01:59 I want mark 2's back PYA Today at 01:59 You can fuck off with that shit. I like the concept behind mark 2s But the implementation was braindead Light tanks with UML Syo Much Content Today at 01:59 They would help low income teams who cant afford meds PYA Today at 01:59 Great fucking idea yeah, which is nice but jesus I don't mind things like that but good fucking god That SPECIFIC implementation Hell the fuck no Syo Much Content Today at 02:00 Just because they botched the implementation doesn't mean its really a bad idea PYA Today at 02:00 I agree! But fuck man... We need more like, intermediate research before that shit happens Like, less powerful 2 slots or something Or, more powerful 1 slots Syo Much Content Today at 02:00 I dunno maybe make mark 2's have more asymmetrical to them PYA Today at 02:00 Because giving Mark 2s fucking medium tank weapons is baddddd Syo Much Content Today at 02:00 like be gets 2 slot canon but keep 1 slot everything else PYA Today at 02:00 Pretty sure that was it was Wait, no it wasn't jesus Syo Much Content Today at 02:01 I swore it just gave level 2 weapons to every slot not just one slot PYA Today at 02:01 Nah I think it did. God, fuck man. Seriously who thought that shit was a good idea That specific implementation that is light tanks with UMLs without any balancing Syo Much Content Today at 02:01 Light vehicles have shit armor to begin with. Im confused how they were an issue because turrets are the only time effective When meds hit the field, turrets drastically go down to eventually pointless. PYA Today at 02:02 It's mostly the vehicle to vehicle combat It's kind of like why, IMO, gren upgrade is busted You can rush it, and annihilate the other team Syo Much Content Today at 02:03 I get that but turrets are designed to swat at apc and light vechicles PYA Today at 02:03 Yep... but I mean Even against regular light vehicles They're not that effective unless they hit a critical mass Syo Much Content Today at 02:03 Question. Can you make a level 4 turret? PYA Today at 02:04 But why though? What the fuck is a level 4 turret? Syo Much Content Today at 02:04 missiles and machine gun in one PYA Today at 02:04 Oh, like TF2 style Syo Much Content Today at 02:04 Yeah PYA Today at 02:04 I mean, I could jerry rig it HMMM. That brings up a research item Syo Much Content Today at 02:05 Then a level 5 it has legs PYA Today at 02:05 Why not like, have research for dual-turrets that are less effective overall But can fire at everything Like, a DU turret Syo Much Content Today at 02:05 Du doesn't do shit against infantry though Bio makes more sense PYA Today at 02:05 I mean, not exactly DU I mean like, half the damage on the MG turret, and the ML Syo Much Content Today at 02:06 not applying dot damage PYA Today at 02:06 and stick it into one turret Or like, lower the fire rate Or both Maybe like some shitty laser turret Syo Much Content Today at 02:06 What I would do is just make it a level 2 with rockets on it Just combine two level 2's into one PYA Today at 02:07 Hm, but like having 3 levels to this hypothetical dual-turret So, you'd have the option of using that turret or the mg and ml Syo Much Content Today at 02:07 I wouldn't. I either get level 3 mgs or missles or a hybrid level 2 PYA Today at 02:07 At a significantly higher cost... honestly we just need level 2 and 3 other buildings Like a level 2 barracks would kick ass Syo Much Content Today at 02:07 I wouldn't even know what that looks like PYA Today at 02:07 Well, I really want barracks teleportation Syo Much Content Today at 02:08 hm Kill spawning PYA Today at 02:08 Maybe like, you can teleport to armories from barracks. With level 2 barracks and level 2 armories turn into bunkers and level 2 radars .... do something Give armor detection in a small radius* Level 2 vehicle factories.... Syo Much Content Today at 02:09 In dawn of war, you can upgrade your resource points to get more resources for a small flat fee PYA Today at 02:09 Speed boost on creation? Aye there we go Syo Much Content Today at 02:09 The problem are the resource rates are tied to maps. You have to manually edit each map. This is why I think standardized rates is a good thing because its a variable in the code you tweak vs tweaking 30 maps. PYA Today at 02:10 Yep Although, I like X's bespoke resource rate adjustments Syo Much Content Today at 02:11 The problem with that is he made his own versions of the maps to make that work PYA Today at 02:11 Yeah, which is insanity. Don't know why we don't just have config files that the game reads from seperate from the compiled map. But, besides that technical bit.I like the idea of level 2 refineries, sort of not sure how it'd play out. Syo Much Content Today at 02:12 Not to mention it infringes on technical creative libel PYA Today at 02:12 May just cause snowballing Syo Much Content Today at 02:12 Just increase the resource tick rate with a small increase. Like x's server is one ref = 1 resource tick press a button level 2 ref. PYA Today at 02:12 Maybe just like, increase ref health Syo Much Content Today at 02:12 now it gives me 2 ticks and I have to manually upgrade each ref PYA Today at 02:13 Yeah. Maybe, resources produced above level 1 refineries depend on HP Syo Much Content Today at 02:13 Resource rates are decimals now PYA Today at 02:13 with the minimum being a level 1 refinery rate Syo Much Content Today at 02:13 so the rates have been increased by a fraction PYA Today at 02:13 Yeah lol Syo Much Content Today at 02:15 No offense but I just don't think level buildings is really a path we should take and just provide more building options. Like you said teleportation between points right without the need to spawn kill. Why not just make a tube? PYA Today at 02:16 Yeah, that idea has been floated around forever Syo Much Content Today at 02:16 A separate building designed for that purpose PYA Today at 02:16 Kind of want a player cannon too but Syo Much Content Today at 02:16 a what? PYA Today at 02:16 Player cannon Syo Much Content Today at 02:16 You want a catapult PYA Today at 02:17 Not that sold on the idea in Empires though, feel like maintaining the frontline is the whole game This just breaks that entirely would like some sort of fast reinforcement tool. Syo Much Content Today at 02:18 I want watch towers, bunkers, and walls that you can shoot from PYA Today at 02:18 Since we have squad revives and revives as that tool currently Syo Much Content Today at 02:18 Fixed guns And turrets on buildings PYA Today at 02:19 Would honestly make the Scout better. Because there'd be shit to sabotage. Not sure if I like that idea that much though, if you can shoot people out of it sure. The counter-play may be bad. Syo Much Content Today at 02:19 It bugs me there is no indicator to know what resarch they are getting PYA Today at 02:19 Counter-play as in, the term Riot uses Syo Much Content Today at 02:19 when radar is sabbed PYA Today at 02:19 Yeah. I wish you could force your enemies to research other shit Or everyone's minimaps get fucking scrambled lol Syo Much Content Today at 02:20 That's the point of the counter system PYA Today at 02:20 I mean like, sabotaging it. You can just fuck with the enemy commander Syo Much Content Today at 02:20 Forcing my enemies to get different tech PYA Today at 02:20 That'd be annoying and unfun for the commander though Syo Much Content Today at 02:20 every round PYA Today at 02:20 Yeahhhh Syo Much Content Today at 02:20 because of the threat of countering PYA Today at 02:20 Yeah. Syo Much Content Today at 02:21 And the balancing will look like a pentagram. Here it is Destroy means counter and insult means nullify while caress means neutral Stand the fuck back im trying to summon krenzo But you get the picture @PYA PYA Today at 023 Yeah I get it Going to go to bed though Nice talking to ya Syo Much Content Today at 023 Same
Man when you read it like this discord really is ass for decent discussion. In any case I don't like counter systems but i do like the slider idea. Whatever lets the player have more choice in how they want to play with their tank sounds good to me.
If you think this looks bad, should of seen it before transcription. Copying and pasting convos from discord is ass. Im just going to do that here on the fourm so it looks neater.
I am still against hard-counters, with reasons addressed already. Here's the issues I see with "sliders" 1: Most people will stick to an all-rounder setting, say, moderate-high armor, moderate-high firepower, normal speed, aka our current heavy tank. In a way, we would end up with even more stale vehicle customization. 2: Simple sliders can not cover the abundant properties of our current weapons/armors/engines. Which means we either have to make the simple sliders not so simple, or remove all those properties. If we are making the system complicated, that's a big no-no, the reasons are the same as those I use against hard-counters. 3:As you said, that's removing some depth from the game, but if you ask me, that's too much depth removed. So what do I propose? Just leave the system as it is, with better balance. I am still believing that the current structure "can" work. It's not like we have done all we possibly could and the system is still not looking good, it's not like that at all. From the feedback and my personal experience around 201 I can still remember the day I took over 2.6.9, there's the 70hp Regen armor and guess what Empires is already 10 years old. You can't possibly be telling me that the system could not be improved and we should just get rid of the system. Last, this Discord chat festa is horrible to read, at least sum up the points so people who missed the Discord chat can still easily capture the points.
Any instant messaging is terrible for discussion. Workplaces have all been marketed towards using slack, but when it comes time to make important decisions or nuanced arguments the critical thinking step gets thrown out the window because you reply right now instead of taking time to think.
Kairo Last Sunday at 12:27 2 Persons on server why is the game so dead all FPS RTS GAMES DIE DDDDestroyer Last Sunday at 12:28 i can't speak for others, but for me the current experience is not fun, so i'm not playing Syo much content Yesterday at 17:40 I have fun with the current shit on the condition there is actual balanced teams Sgt.Security Today at 00:11 ^ I think most games aren't fun if they always give you unbalanced teams, imagine that. Also, if you ask why people don't play, I'll just say, it's a human nature to do things that "at least they think" are more worthy of their time. Syo much content Today at 11:58 Empires would still be fun to me to be honest if tanks had built in load outs instead of waiting for resarch or research period. The game-play itself is so dynamic that I wouldn't really notice a feature like that missing. Unless I was the commander. I think that is one of the issues is the lack of understanding the commander role because nobody really knows what its like for the commander unless they command themselves at some point. I think that type of communication could be fixed but I wouldn't have any idea how. In battlezone there is something called a command bunker that random players outside of the commander can use and get an rts view of the battlefield and look at all the stuff the commander unlocked and look at how much something costs. And they could physically spectate the commander. They cant do anything other than just watch the commander. The commander is the only person who can use the com bunker to its full potential And he can place multiple ones. Because battlezone doesn't have a command vehicle. They have a command center. They have to physically build something to unlock the commander and RTS aspect of the game.So they could drive to the other-side of the map and place a com bunker, build it and then go spectate their base from miles away. Because in battlezone there were 1v1's and that game featured AI units that could you build and control. The only way to lose was to lose the command center Oktay Today at 12:05 i would spam hover tank with laser turret Syo much content Today at 12:06 Empires draws more inspiration from battlezone than any other game out there and it continues to bug me that im the only person who knows what the fuck battlezone is Oktay Today at 12:15 i dont know if build in load outs improve the current state. because no matter how you balanced it will have a meta in terms of load outs Syo much content Today at 12:16 Would be easier to balance though. There will always be some superior meta but gameplay balancing is a nightmare because of all these variables that are present. If you make the equation smaller and simpler its easier to find an answer. I am sure there is a way you can simplify and not remove the depth at the same time. But I don't think ignoring easy options either will help in the long run.
So I played two matches on Sunday on vanilla scripts and a server. I had fun but I have some opinions on it. There is some shit that Mr. X server does well with that I think vanilla empires can learn from. Here I will list them. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A consistent resource rate that is seen through all the maps and are balanced towards this end instead of each map having their own custom economy balancing. The reason why I suggest this is because it will make it easier on new players to understand empires economy and make it more clear how important refineries are. X's server resource rates were too low in my opinion. He updated them by 10% increase but I still don't like that. How he has his resources set up is that every single refinery produces 2 ticks. What I do on his server is capture refineries and boosting that 2 to a 10. And have a 10 point resource rate gain, and keeping an average around there. Anything below that im not satisfied with. What X did was modify a shitload of maps to fit this economy balancing of his. That's dumb as hell and it also fucks with the mappers content. I think there should be a varaible in the code that allows that uniform economy balancing without editing the maps. What I propose is this. Every refinery produces about 3. Meaning you need at-least 4 refineries under your control to achieve a 10+ average per second. Now another method in regards to the current resource rate. You can leave it as it is. But bring back research costing money. It will slow down research and keep teams economies from going unnecessarily large. This is an easier method but that also opens up an avenue of balancing costs. How I see it is bog down the resource rates to something lower or make people spend more money with the current high rates. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Two upgrades for the grenadier is unnecessary. I don't think gren should be able to solo a heavy tank regardless of skill. I think you should have a coordinated group kill a heavy tank instead of making it completely easier to kill tanks in general. I agree that the gren should have an upgrade. But I don't think he should have two of them. Which I think is 30% in damage increase? I think the class should only have 1 upgrade. Making it a 15% increase instead. Here is what I propose. Limiting the upgrade to 1 but adding that buff the gren gets, to their mortar as well making them the class that is better suited to taking down buildings. And move the gren upgrade to chemistry next to UGL. We have an issue of people not really exploring the gren because of how engineer is more useful utility wise. When all of us know is that class is one of the cornerstones to the game in regards to game play. The epitome of easy to use hard to master class. We also run into the issue of the commander making a complete B-line for that upgrade instead of getting armor-engine first. There is no reason for me to ignore that upgrade when I can have easy early game anti tank. So when I get that 2nd upgrade. Heavies tanks are right there for me to unlock. It's so much easier to get heavy tanks earlier in the game because the game incentivised me so much to get that 2nd gren upgrade. I don't think heavies should come into play at the 15 minute mark unless the commander did some crazy research. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Now here is a suggestion that has nothing to do with scripts and balancing. Bring back squad voice and add proximity voice The issue empires has had for years is people talking over each other in important moments and being unable to hear the commander and relay information correctly and coherently. If I am directing a squad. The team doesn't need to hear me telling individual players what to do unless it affects the bigger picture. Proximity and squad voip can increase squad cohesion immensely without hurting the team communication at large. (I also low key want to be able to shit talk the enemy commander when I ram my tank into him and ̶m̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶c̶ ̶s̶p̶a̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶) __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Changing the research timers for Tanks. This one I think I will agree with X on is the timers he set for the tanks. I think meds should be quicker and easier to get and heavies longer to get on the field. What he did was add a long timer on heavies and require a 750 resource requirement to unlock heavies. I think tanks in general should have a price attached to them to research but keeping armor, engines, and weapons free. This will make them take longer to field and extending that early game to maybe by a few extra minutes depending on how well a team is maintaining their economy. I don't think locking research behind money requirements is a bad idea but if everything costs money. Then a poor team will just not stand a chance at all. I want poor teams to still have a fighting chance which is going to segway into my next point. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Bring back Mk 2's I am not going to pretend I know what im doing in regards to balancing the game. I am going to make suggestions and spit ball ideas that could potentially be refined and workshopped until it can be viable. What I do think is a good idea though is the exsistance of mk 2's. Because this tank was the bread and butter of a low income team. Allowing them to field tanks and stand a chance against the higher end enemy tanks. Now from my understanding that past implementation of mk'2 was pretty broken and bad. Here is what I suggest. Allow them to fit more plates on mk'2 and make them a little faster rather than increasing their dmg or changing their weapon slots. I think that is a better way to balance them rather than increasing thier dmg because it will provide more sustainability making it easier for them to escape and repair or to push in tank fights. If they are a little more beefer, they can stay in engagements longer. I don't think grens should solo a heavy tank, but a med tank should be able to kill a heavy tank especially you calculate skill into the equation. Making it as little easier for that med tank to survive a heavy tank. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A brand new turret that can only be built by commanders These things usefulness falls off drastically as the game progresses. The moment nukes hit the field or a team goes chemistry these things might as well be useless if you are operating on the assumption the tank driver knows how to play. So instead of buffing them to be more useful in regards to health, dmg or range. Why not consolidate the costs by merging them? I think this is a good solution to making turrets more viable without touching their inherent script balancing. You don't need to change firing rate or dmg. Because by placing a com turret. I just got two for the price of one. That itself is a buff because its saving the commander money and time. Turrets themselves can be expensive making it harder for low income teams to defend their base. Especially in mass. You need a turret farm to keep your shit protected and that can be really expensive if every dollar counts at that current time frame. I don't think engineers should have the ability to build com turrets and force them to opt for a machine or a missile until they can place two turrets eventually. Making these turrets have more importance and value. Making the commander more useful to their team in a more direct approach outside of research and building. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Extend the count down timer The current timer is too short, and depending on latency and how potato a computer is. People can take a good minute before getting into a match. I don't think the game should start until both teams have their population. Increase it to 100 seconds than 60 seconds. Have the team type /ready which will shorten the timer to 15 seconds. When 3/4 of the team is ready shorten the counrdown. I can't stress enough that teams need their time to organize especially when people are still downloading or loading into the game. You need a longer time to take in the account that people are just simply slower and its out of their control. In my opinion the whole unit should only go as fast as the slowest person.
I think the game in it's current state, is fairly well balanced (compared to past versions) and has more variety than past versions. I've changed research between reactive/3phase, regen/3phase, deflective/fission, and i've seen comms now a days start using compo/turbine, and abs/coolant. So, besides capacitive and bio engine, I actually like the state of balance in the game. I got DU the other night, and it ripped NF to shreds. So, Things are viable, which is great. I'm thinking of a build like plasma/coolant on a more static map just for shits and giggles. What could add variety to the commander job is that doctrine Idea. I think, maybe after 5 minutes of a match, where it's somewhat established how much of the map one side controls, and what players your working with. Choosing an effective doctrine to reinforce your team's playstyle would add another stratigic element to the game (without screwing up balancing too much) It would also benefit us Vet's, and test our knowledge of like "who's a good tanker on our team" or "who's the best rifleman" or "we have alot of nubs on our team, maybe we should buff their damage" but, i think that would make commanding more fun, and help strengthen the community and reinforce their strengths/identity in the community (PYA, you are always a gren to me ❤️). Like, I know i'm a shitty tanker. My strength lies with one-off fire fights, usually as engineer. So, if I was choosing a doctrine for that play style, it'd be important to know what doctrine would be good for that player. I'd be totally up for the idea of implementing doctrines. And if it doesn't work out, we could always remove them.