Beginning to command

Discussion in 'General' started by MartinPL, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. MartinPL

    MartinPL Member

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    Actually i think this is very hard to achieve, due to people always searching for most viable and easy things, than try to smart-out opponent.
     
  2. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Modding a game isn't easy, you either do it right or piss everyone off who plays it.
    I rather see no updates for a whole year and solve research meta once and for all, vs a monthly patch mixing things up.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
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  3. Kidpaler

    Kidpaler Member

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    @BigTeef I'd wager Compo is much better than absorbent/reactive. The problem with Absorbent and cooling is that Absorbent is really weak and thus needs to be on the move to make it effective. If you are sitting still with Absorbent armor, your tank WILL melt.

    If you have reactive, it just feels like you don't have as much protection as you would if you had compo. Compo is all around, I would say, the best armor in the game by far. Compo is still strongest and best armor and should be acquired almost under any circumstance, unless you are NF rushing electrical then get Reactive, or unless you are NF and wanting to fuck with your enemy and get regen 3phase lights that dance around enemy tanks.
     
  4. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Feel free to make your own research tree like I did and post builds.
    So people have more shit to use besides mine.
    I use reactive for everything because people keep screeching reactive at me.
     
  5. Kidpaler

    Kidpaler Member

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    You're pretty spot on the money with all the research, but I'd suggest if you are BE, under no circumstance should you stray from getting Compo and 3phase/fission. Gas Turbine if you REALLY want to rush that medium tank.

    NF should get something like Reactive/Compo, sometimes Regen if you have a competent team on a very open map and want to harass the enemy with lights for a while.

    That's about it for difference. Oh, maybe research meds before weapons to get that extra armor to push back tanks. Still has same DPS as AFV's/Lights but provides more armor which should allow your team to push easier.
     
  6. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Is there really a flavor of the month armor?

    I have to ask this whenever someone says "just research XXX, it's the best armor now."

    I can't stop you from thinking there is, because we've been playing THAT kind of Empires for almost a decade, it's probably hard to move on from that mindset.

    But I am quite positive that there isn't a flavor of the month armor, even if there is, I don't think it's "as flavored" as before.
     
  7. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Composite is by far the best armor.
     
  8. Kidpaler

    Kidpaler Member

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    It definitely is.

    Before the current setup, which I agree has been in place for a while, Compo reigned supreme. However, if the enemy had rails you better not be caught dead with compo on your tank because it would just get eaten. Other armors I recall having similar properties as this where they would seem to be weak to one weapon but good against all others.

    Now, it kind of is flavor of the month. When you nerfed HEMG, BIO MG became the new HEMG and straying from BIO gets you yelled at. No other MG seems to be able to compete with BIO and we see this in almost every type of weapon. Missiles have their own OP weapon, Cannons are dominated by Dual ER, Compo is best armor, 3 phase is best engine. There isn't much variation at all when it comes to research paths. It's the same almost every game.
     
  9. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    thats not now it works, thats not how any of this work. there are way to many possible combinations on various maps to simply predict the outcome and on top there is the human factor ("ease of use")
    if it would be so easy dont you think valve would rather not release a patch for a year and fix their balance once and for all? admitably dota is way more complex than empires, but they also have a million times the resources we do.
    exactly the opposite of what you said is what may bring forth a decent balance - small monthly tweaks (id say weekly, but with such a small playerbase there are not enough games to draw conclusions)
     
  10. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Yes.

    But honestly, I am not gonna blame Teef (or anyone else) for losing faith in "how things were done".

    I took over a mess, if you ask me it's almost as if the dev team just released the game, not like it's 10 years old.
     
  11. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    The difference between a professionally made game by a game studio vs a mod is that they get paid to do their job and they have a professional in every field of development.

    Where a mod team is a group of college kids with nothing better to do who have jobs and lives to attend too and are not paid to sit in front of a computer 8 hours a day. Everyone who laid the ground work for this game is gone because their lives got too busy. This is why there are 13 different versions of people remaking the game on a different engine and abandoned. Because nobody was paid professionally to develop the game.

    If empires had 12 people who were paid living wages and focused on empires. The game wouldn't of made a snail amount of progress since conception.
    That is exactly how this works flasche. A professional studio would of fixed this shit in 3 months vs us where staff changes every year.

    I am too fucking retarded to learn how to code and develop, and if I did get the skills. I have a job that demands 8 hours of my attention 5 days a week and I don't want to code and develop in my free time when I could be having fun. Nobody does. And I don't think anyone here is skilled enough to start a kickstarter campaign so people can get paid to work on empires.

    A whole year of college kids focusing on fixing this problem is very realistic than ignoring it entirely and just mixing up the flavor every month.
    I have accepted that everyone likes the game, just like how they like all their other games in their steam library. But nobody loves it enough to save it.

    We are not Torn Banner Studios, we are not Tripwire Interactive, we are not Movie Battles, we are not Unknown Worlds. We are empires. And until somebody loves the game enough to start a studio and hire people to work on the game or clone it. This is how it will always be. That is how it exactly works.

    So get security and his sweatshop of Taiwanese orphans that code for him to find a solution so you don't need to tweak how armor and engines work every month. If you need a year to do it, then do it. If you need two years, then do it. The bottom line is do it. So the game can move forward and get more features and new shit into the game. We are still here now, we will still be here a few years from now.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
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  12. MartinPL

    MartinPL Member

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    BigTeef is right, it is hard to add anything to his post. Well, I understand that issue too much. I'm already doing shit to other game and already i'm exhausted on working on it.
    ((Especially when Devs of that game gives zero fu** about modding for it.))
    Of course someone could form new group of people to work on Empires, but they gonna run away quickly. Other way is leaving some ideas about Empires, new things, changes or even other gamemodes for smaller pop numbers, but not only nobody gonna touch it in loong time, but some people here are ready to zealot rush you to throw meat against any of your new idea. Well, Any-other way, Empires gonna be dead. That is sad, but true i think.
     
  13. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    The alternative is locking them in a room and feed them through a trough like I did when candles was a developer.

    But then he figured out the door was unlocked the whole time and I didn't own any firearms.
    Just made stupid noises with my mouth that sounded convincingly like gunfire.
     
  14. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    the people who fuck with scripts and balance would never do something like update the wiki because they cant be bothered to even change the dependencies in the actual game to match whatever the fuck they changed


    remember when i supported the apc weight change
     
  15. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    stop mixing everything together and strawmen me. i have not said a word about developing (new) features for the game, i was talking about balancing it - or like you called it in the sentence i quoted "research meta".
    you cant take a timeout of a year (or two or three) and balance the game by raw numbers, thats just not how it works. its not working for huge studios with a multi million dollar budget, its even less likely to work for a small group of devs who do it in their spare time.
    the only way this is going to work is continous small tweaks and even then its very unlikely there will ever be a "perfect balance" without any "flavor of the week" research, there simply are too many possible combinations of research, sources/types of damage, and maps.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
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  16. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    How many years has research meta been done with "continuous small tweaks"?
    That either got reverted or just thrown out the window the following month?

    I don't want perfect. I want people stop reinventing the wheel and give me something concrete.
    This is entirely how it works but like every empires developer from before, they some how know better than the people who play game and therefor ignore me, complete, anyone who doesn't drink the koolaide.

    Then continue to do the same shit they are doing until they resign. And the cycle continues.
    This isn't a strawman, this is a history lesson. You continue down this path, and you will never move forward.

    Try something different for fuck sakes. If continuous small tweaks didn't work the past 5 to 6 years, what the hell makes you think it will work tomorrow, or the day after?

    Try the damn pentagram system so I can stop being forced to use composite every game and explore new options.

    [​IMG]

    If my enemy has X I need to get Y. Instead of ignoring their build entirely.
    I want to guess what the hell they researched so I can figure out how to keep my tanks alive and hurt theirs.
    It's not perfect at all but it stops me from getting the same shit every game.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  17. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    omg we go there again ...
    ... so you want to roll dice? because thats what a counter system with research totally is. you roll dice and whoever picked the counter wins.

    you totally should be made lead dev. because it will totally fun to have a game which is solely decided by a completely random pick of a single player.
    everyone will enjoy themselfs so much.
    its gonna be glorious.
    fantastic.
    the best.
    believe me.

    fogive me for being a cynical asshole about this, but we had this discussion a dozen times already.
    but aside of that, it still does not guarantee balance in any way, because even hard counters need a certain balance between eachother.
    or do you want weapon x to deal 0 damage against armor y. oh boi, thats gonna be even more fun then.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  18. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    I refuse to believe you because this style of balancing has been wrong for years and continues to be wrong. Get this armor, this engine, get these weapons, ignore everything else. Might as well make research a singular line. It's always been like this. You either try something new or fucking lobotomize research and put all the effort into game-play. You can't have both if you refuse to try something different.

    What you are saying is that picking a different research tree every single match is far worse than getting the same shit every single game for a month straight, until you decided to swap numbers in a notepad file.

    Forgive me for trying to pull your head out of your ass but how long are people going to defend a system that has been broken for years.
    Vs a system that fucking card games have used for years and have perfected by constant trial and error? And im not talking about hearthstone, fuck that RNG shit.
    This is a simple rock paper scissor mechanic. Water beats fire, fire beats earth, earth beats electricity, electricity beats water.

    If two teams get an armor and an engine and get weapons that don't counter oppositing team armor its going to be the same shit we are playing now. All im doing is giving people more incentive to try different shit instead of establishing a meta that changes every patch.

    I rather try a new experimental system than doing the same shit for years and hoping for a different result. Remember that is the definition of insanity.

    Doing the same shit forever and expecting a different outcome.
    "Continuous small tweaks over a time period".
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  19. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    no im saying that hard counters are a diceroll. it takes several minutes before the enemy gets an armor, it takes several minutes more before you get weapons. and then after what 15minutes into the game you figure out, well damn our weapons dont do jack shit against their armor, gg, wp, next.

    so fun.

    the only way i see it working is items that are equally useful against everything, just with slightly different mechanics. and thats something youll need to tweak contniously.

    you will btw need to tweak your pentagonal research tree aswell. there are harder counters on the opposite than on items right next to something. so all this random dicerolling aside, you will still end up with continous tweaks over the years (at best weekly, but there aint enough games during the week, but monthly should be doable if you collect stats)

    also we barely ever had continous small tweaks over the course of a longer period. look at the release times. there are version with half a year time inbetween and often changes have been big.
    no we dont have or had what you claim or what i want.
     
  20. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    So now you are back pedaling on a statement you made, which is actually true if you look at the timelines.
    I am sorry but what are you trying to pitch here?

    Do you have a solution that isn't continous small tweaks or my suggested pentagram system?
     

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