What I have against armor-counters.

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    This is a very simple example of what could be done. However there are many problems with this, mainly that it might be too simple to counter, place a number of scouts in your main base and you will ensure that the enemy cannot see what you're researching, leaving them a high chance to lose.
    And for gameplay it leaves some people camping and doing mostly nothing but waiting the entire round so it's not a very interesting mechanic. I'm sure we can think of something better.

    Remember that in RTS games it's usually pretty hard to kill the scouts before they gather the information.
     
  2. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    The thing is scouts dont work like that in empires. You can litterally jeep over run itno radar sab then get killed and have your intel you need. Making gathering information quite easy which it should be + and fun for your scout to do. It isn't like having a scout in your base is going to make sure your radar doesnt get sabbed, youll just know when your radar is getting sabbed.
     
  3. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Even if scouts can gather info, that just "kinda" solves the problem in early-game, in early-game there's not much options for vehicle customization.
    So yeah, if you know what did the enemy team research, you can make a move base on that.

    It doesn't solve the problem in late-game.

    And this problem gets bigger in late game, when there's more and more options and a heavy tank costs 1.5k.
    It would be pretty depressing to lose your tank simply because you guessed that wrong. (Oh shit I thought he would use A so I picked B, fuck.)
    It's still luck.
     
  4. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I remember someone saying to add a panel in the radar that shows what's being researched. Like how the vf has a screen in it, this one just shows the research.

    Give it a hacking minigame to change research or something. Make it extra fun and make it so you can simply steal research and then have to carry that intel back to your teams radar.
     
  5. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Here, let me make a short conclusion. I got 3 things against "more" armor counters.

    1: We already have some of the "soft-counters".

    Absorbent is good against bio and high velocity projectiles, bad against low velocity projectiles (Guided ML/Salvo Homing would deal much higher damage).
    Capacitive is good against low velocity projectiles and bio because of its HP, bad against high velocity projectiles (Cannons especially rail would deal much higher damage).
    Reactive is good against bio because of its HP.
    Regen is good against weapons that deal "smooth" damage, it is bad against weapons that deal burst damage.

    Deflective is bad against bio, this deserves a special mention because it is really bad, this is probably the hardest counter here, Deflective is just 75 hp plain armor in front of Bio.
    Second place goes to Absorbant vs Bio.

    Not much, but they do exist.
    If anyone wanna ask for more, here, defeat my second reason.

    2: There's no way to scout enemy's research tree, so you can't really make a move like you can in RTS games.

    And of course, even if you have a decent solution for that ( I see a few potential solutions.)

    Here comes my ultimate reason, if you can defeat this, well played.
    3: Even if you know enemy's research tree inside-out, you still can't predict what will the enemy team actually put on their tanks, there's no way for you to make any reliable decision.

    You know that enemy team has Absorbant, Compo, Regen, Bio ML/MG, HE/HEMG and Homing ML.

    Now, how do you pick your weapons/armor? I am talking about vehicle customization here, not research.
    It looks to me that people will end up picking their favorite armor and if enemy happens to equip counter weapons on their tank, gg.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
  6. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    And your number 3 reason is where you went wrong.

    Having your counter ready is not about late game where the enemy team has everything its about scouting and seeing enemy is going physics tree early game and then retroactively getting bio to fight it off. Lategame it matters less because everything might be researched. But thats hardly ever the case.

    Boom reason defeated. This was the easyest reason to rek bro
     
  7. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Security's number 3 is actually a very good point which I forgot because it's so obviously present in RTS that you forget about it. You should be able to recognize what units (or armors/weapons/engines in our case) the enemy is using on sight.

    This further highlights the point that Security and I have been trying to convey. Which is, if we're being honest, Empires researches are not designed for counters.

    Counters should be more unit based, unfortunately in Empires our units range is rather limited. I would assume that in the original design the idea what to counter tanks with aircrafts, and possibly aircraft with infantry, infantry with tanks?

    So here we are, stuck with unfinished designs and unorganized ideas.
     
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    That was a miss.

    You definitely see different weapons being researched in late-game, that's not "hardly ever the case".

    When you are customizing vehicle, there's virtually no logical way for you to figure out the best armor you should get.
    Like Mr X said, it's like you are playing chess without seeing your opponent's move.

    So yeah, my reason 3 is standing strong.
     
  9. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    basicly your argument only stands lategame, early game and midgame it doesnt at all

    Ofcouse you see different weapons being researched late game, but not to the extent that you cant at all figure out what the enemy is using like you suggest so no your suggestion doesnt stand.
    in your post you imply he went into 3 different research trees. Most games go into 2 research trees so thats enough to figure out already. if you go into 3 the game is going on for a really really long time.

    Going to type it out again since you dont want to get your arguments proven wrong
    basicly your argument only stands lategame, early game and midgame it doesnt at all
     
  10. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Exactly, my argument IS for late-game.

    Even if it's just 2 different weapons, you have to pick a side when you are creating your vehicle.
    If you picked the wrong side, well unlucky man, try again next tank(game).
    Even if you drive back to repair pad and recustomize it, a wild enemy tank with different customization appears.

    This is actually a problem with the fundamental game design.

    Under the current game design, I doubt it's even possible to defeat my reason 3.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  11. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    [sarcasm]great gameplay concept, you should be made lead developer[/sarcasm]
     
    Xyaminou likes this.

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