Calculators for all classes

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Xyaminou, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    Engineer is the bread and butter of empires. It's literally the central class of the game and you want everyone to have his primary function.

    You might as well just completely remove classes from the game entirely and make a single class with every weapon option.
     
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  2. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    If by "primary function" you mean build... they already have it!

    Also classes are bad if I could remove them I would.
     
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  3. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeah, a classless system is best. It would be more fun if the calc had it's own upgrade system, so players could customize and chose what they actually want to do with it, with the basic ability being to build things and repair things slowly. Building things being a core part of empires.

    I'd like to point out that engineer's secondary, and slightly more primary function, is to be the medic class. Every other class can build but no other class can heal and revive. I mean even it's squad aura is health regen, if it was more of a dedicated builder type it would have something like increased build speed or something instead.
     
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  4. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Not only that but it would be more adapted to interactions with the RTS part. If we had any kind of infantry specific research any time a commander would go down a specific path, such as grenadiers upgrade, everyone would be forced to play grenadier or it would go to waste. The current class system is highly inadequate to interacting with RTS.

    Exactly, when I play Engineer in a squad I don't play it to build stuff, I play it to heal my friends, keep them alive and give them the best support so they can be the best killers.
    As far as I'm concerned, Engineer is actually the Medic and Grenadier is the Mechanic.
     
  5. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    I wrote this in the chat box of the Forums:

    "I bring to you the new calculator for all classes: Modular Battle Assistant! Finally our MBAs will have some use! Modular cause each class has different tasks so they gotta be versatile tools."

    Have you seen those phones that you can make yourself by connecting the parts you want together in form of blocks? Well same thing for this new calculator It's like Lego.

    Rough idea based on Xya's main post represented with colored blocks (Not actual blocks in pictures sorry,just imagine Lego):

    The MBAs of every class have something common, E-Build. It's the Dark Green block. All other colored blocks are added on this one.

    Engineer: The Green block allows you to become a medic (Healing), build structures faster, drop automated defenses (turrets) and fortifications.
    Skills: Building Repair Upgrade, Healing Upgrade, Revive, Upgraded Turrets, Vehicle Cooling.​

    Grenadier: The Red block is the mine detonator and defuser, vehicle and wall repair tool.
    Skills: Armor Detection, Armor Upgrade, Artillery Feedback, Defusal, Vehicle Repair Upgrade.​

    Rifleman: The Blue block is an ammo box.
    Skills: Dig In, Infantry Damage Upgrade, Vehicle Damage Upgrade.​

    Scout: The Yellow block allows the placement of Surveillance Devices. Sabotages buildings.
    Skills: Cloaking, Enhanced Senses, Radar Stealth, Suppressors, Vehicle Speed Upgrade.​

    Notes and alternative ideas:

    -If you think MBA try MCA (Modular Combat Assistant).
    -In the Controls, Slot 4 (Equipment) should be renamed to Slot 4 (MBA) or whatever it's called. I think MBA is short and fancy.
    -I would prefer to give the rifleman the possibility to heal others though a medic skill. Maybe at the cost of other equipment like grenades.
    -I would prefer to remove ammo box ability from the rifleman and make a new skill available for Engineers, Grenadiers and Rifleman which would be called "Ammunition Support" that would allow your MBA to place an ammo box. As it is, the Rifleman is a support class by default that can spam ammo boxes. (Obviously when 30%-50% of the team goes Rifleman). No real issue because this already happens with the Engineers but for obvious reasons it makes more sense currently.
    -Ammunition Support Skill could a general skill for simplicity reasons. And yes, if nobody gets this skill there're won't be any ammo boxes in the team so the importance of team and squads coordination would be more significant.
    -Self-Medication. Possible default ability for the Rifleman. Discharge the calculator completely to regain an X amount of health.
    -I think of the Grenadier as a Pioneer which does include Engineer, so dropping walls makes sense for me but I don't care much for this.
    -Xya thing of the Grenadier as the mechanic type so it makes sense to him that only he had the Vehicle Repair Upgrade skill. If it would be implemented like this, I would prefer if Building and Vehicle Repair Upgrades for the Engineer and Grenadier respectively were theirs by default, as it has been suggested to remove the current "Repair Upgrade", and give the Engineer Vehicle Repair Upgrade.

    Xya's idea, in conjunction with the above ideas, would look like this (Represented again with colored blocks):

    The MBAs of every class have something common, E-Build. It's the Dark Green block. All other colored blocks are added on this one.

    Engineer: The Green block allows you to become a medic (Healing), build structures faster (Building Repair Upgrade included), drop automated defenses (turrets) and fortifications.
    Skills: Healing Upgrade, Revive, Ammunition Support, Upgraded Turrets, Vehicle Cooling, Vehicle Repair Upgrade.​

    Grenadier: The Red block is the mine detonator and defuser, vehicle and wall repair tool (Vehicle Repair Upgrade included).
    Skills: Armor Detection, Armor Upgrade, Artillery Feedback, Defusal, Ammunition Support.​

    Rifleman: The Blue block is nothing; awaits possible upgrade (Healing ability).
    Skills: Dig In, Infantry Damage Upgrade, Vehicle Damage Upgrade, Healing ability.​

    Scout: The Yellow block allows the placement of Surveillance Devices. Sabotages buildings.
    Skills: Cloaking, Enhanced Senses, Radar Stealth, Suppressors, Vehicle Speed Upgrade.​

    Skills and abilities could be divided further in smaller blocks like this:

    Repair Tiers and Types: 1. E-Build, 2. Engineer Building Repair/Grenadier Vehicle Repair, 3. Engineer Building Repair Upgrade/Grenadier Vehicle Repair Upgrade.

    Each color is a different block. Blocks of the same type and improved tier replace the block of the previous tier. So to get the Calculator with Repair Upgrade we have currently in Empires, we would need to combine Engineer Building Repair Upgrade & Grenadier Vehicle Repair Upgrade. This way Skills' and abilities' colors would not be defined by their class but they would simply have their own. Each class could colored blocks used by other classes. In this plan this only occurs once, when an Engineer and a Rifleman both have the basic healing ability, but it allows for more ideas to be easily implemented.

    This means basic healing is a shading of green, building repair is another shading of green. Likewise Vehicle Repair Upgrade is a shading of red which in my version of this idea is a default perk for skill for the Grenadier, furthermore it's an Engineer's skill. So this Engineer would have a Grenadier attribute.

    Why is there a need for colors? There is not. But I think it's easier to understand, at least I hope so. And I like Lego.


    Whether you like the above or not, the main point of this thread is to give a calculator to every class to justify E-Building. The addition of these features is unimportant compared to the need of removal of E-Building. Once the Calculator, or the pretty MBA, are added to all classes, then further features can be taken consideration. This is not a thread about re-balancing skills and classes. Brought this thread back from the dead to note this because it seems it died due the off-topic I mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  6. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    This is a good necro
     
  7. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    It's a good thread and we ended up forgetting about it. I think it deserves more attention by the Devs. Its core is a simple request.

    Edit: Well the colors thing might be confusing in the end. It does make sens,but let's focus on the core idea lel
     
  8. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    I agree. Too many threads have great ideas. People discuss it, comment/edit the suggestion and then reach consensus. Then the posts dies out and nothing happens.
    Its sad to see that happen. We need to necro these kind of threads so devs notice more
     
  9. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    While I agree with what you said it's important to note that we're only asking for this post to be officially recognized, and put in the "under consideration" part of the forums. And not expect full implementation right away, as I understand the plan for Empires development is to re-write things first. And I remember someone mentioning that the tool was actually tied to the engineer class is some weird way that would require a complete re-write to be modified.

    I think this thread provides a solid base of ideas, be it by myself or other people, that can be used to implement a replacement for e-build and if needed take it further.
     
  10. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    I agree on that, but right now there's absolutely no positive reinforcement from the dev team in anyway be it a post in the thread that theyll consider it, or putting it in the other sub forum under consideration
     
  11. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Well Tama did reply to the thread, but it seems to have been forgotten never the less.
     
  12. vipervicki

    vipervicki Member

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    You wanna give my calc to everyone! then I wont be so special :(
    all kidding aside:
    I don't think its a good idea. It will diminish the engi. Engineers build by profession, grenadiers, scouts and rifleman don't and really have no business building.
     
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  13. BlackRedDead

    BlackRedDead Member

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    i like the idea of modular class selection (hidden scunt with lmg pls xD), but we already have a problem that everyone looks the same! - so i'm still for some sort of class selection but more modular!
    the problem is just, the space for modularity is limited by the UI atm, you can't have more than 4 entrys per (weapon) selection and 8 for skillselection - i already played around with it to construct a modular tankdriver class (basicly the engineer, just even worse as infantry but best as tankdriver^^) - it's just not possible atm until someone changes the UI!
     
  14. BlackRedDead

    BlackRedDead Member

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    i know long ago, but i recently get why i was thinking rofleman has 130hp - because effectivly he has - at infantry combat! ;-)

    the rifleman class has a 0.3 (30%) resistance to small arms fire - so every pistol, smg and rifle - making him equal to 130hp in this situation!
    current version: 2.10.0.84
    Code:
      "Rifleman"
       {
       
         "GeneralPhysicsResist"     "0.1"   //General Physics Tree Damage
         "GeneralChemistryResist   "    "0.1"    //General Chemistry Tree Damage
         "GeneralMechanicalResist"    "0.1"   //General Mechanic Tree Damage
         "GeneralElectricResist"    "0.1"   //General Electric Tree Damage
         "GeneralBiologicalResist"   "0.1"    //General Biological Tree Damage
    
         "KineticResist"      "0.1"    //Railguns, Standard Cannons, Anything that is just force
         "ExplosiveResist"      "0.1"   //HE, Nukes, anything that explodes
         "BioResist"        "0.1"   //Has the bio effect
    
         "BulletResist"        "0.0"   //Non Armor damaging
         "APBulletResist"      "0.5"    // Armor Damaging
         "BulletExplosiveResist"    "0.1"  //Bullets that Explode
    
         "MissileResist"      "0.1"   //Generic Missle type of damage
         "MissileExplosiveResist"    "0.55"    //Explosive type.
         "MissileBioResist"      "0.1"   //Bio Missiles.  Different then Bio?
    
         "KineticArtResist"      "0.1"    //Kinetic Artillery
         "ExplosiveArtResist"      "0.15"    // Explosive Artillery
         "BioArtResist"        "0.1"  //Bio Artillery
    
         "AircraftMissileResist"    "0.0"    // Aircraft Missiles
         "AircraftGroundMissleResist"    "0.0"    // Aircraft Missiles to hit ground targets
         "AircraftBulletResist"      "0.0"  //Aircraft to Aircraft bullets
         "AircraftAPBulletResist"    "0.0"    //Aircraft Bullets to hit ground targets
         "AircraftBombResist"      "0.0"  //Bombs
         "AircraftBombBioResist"    "0.0"    //Bio Bombs?
         
         "InfantryGrenadeResist"    "0.0"    //Player Thrown Grenades
         "InfantryMineResist"      "0.0"   //Player Tossed Mines
         "InfantryMissileResist"    "0.0"    //Gren Missles
         "InfantryMortarResist"      "0.0"    //Gren Mortars
         "InfantryStickyResist"      "0.0"   //Sticky Grenades
         "InfantrySeismicResist"    "0.9"   //Seismic Grenades
         "InfantryBulletResist"      "0.3"   //Just In Case
         "InfantryUtilityResist"     "1.0"   //Utility Grenades, Like smoke and concussion
    
         "ExtraType1Resist"      "0.95"    //Yea
         "ExtraType2Resist"      "0.95"    //Again
         "ExtraType3Resist"      "0.95"    //and a third
    
       }
    
    strangely the "bullet resist" differs from "infantry bullet resist" - can someone explain why?
    (eighter it got removed and just the "just in case value" {why ever we need it...} left unchanged or someone totaly messed up and forgot to delete unused entrys after he found out wich entry actually affects and wich not xP)
     
  15. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    Vicki, your worries have probably been answered in, I assume, in every page of this thread because that's what many people fear. You can read my big colorful post in this page to see the reasoning behind splitting repairing types. Building actually remains the same for the engineer. Only tank repair would be like without the upgrade. Depends on which idea you focus on, mine or Xya's. In mine you piratically get the engy that builds everything (has building repair upgrade by default, but need vehicle repair upgrade, to repair as fast as he currently does in empires), the difference is that the grenadier can also repair tanks and possibly walls. In Xya's, the engineer loses the ability to repair vehicles as fast as the grenadier. Think of the Engineer as a civil engineer (Buildings only) and the Grenadier as a mechanic. Civil engineers can probably repair cars too but lets just assume they didn't train for this and have no experience lel.

    Apart from that a calculator for all classes doesn't mean everyone would build fast. It would only replace e-build visually (It means it would still be the slow building mode). So with this, I think you don't need to worry about the engineer being overshadowed.
     
  16. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Like Ranger said, we have discussed this in previous posts. To paraphrase what we said, in a real game of Empires where you play in a 5-man squad engineer turns out to be more of a field medic than a builder. This is what makes him vital to the squad, not building. And I would like to add that I sometimes find myself wishing, while playing (and leading) with a full squad, that Engineers would not have to build everything by themselves because you end up having to decide between letting your teammates die or keeping a building alive. That is not an easy choice.

    That is a very good point, however it does not apply to this idea as the classes and therefore the models would remain the same.
    That being said if there ever were to be a "classless system" you would definitely have to work out a way to visual represent the equipment that the infantry is carrying in order for the enemy to be able to identify them both visually and auditively and take appropriate measures.

    This is why we have these things called "developers" which can modify the world! We even have an GUI Artist, I know, unbelievable, right?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Bulletresist is for vehicle mgs, infantry bullet resist is for infantry weapons.

    I know all that and said all that, but your comment made it sound like grens had the same effective resists as rifleman and that wasn't true.
     
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  18. BlackRedDead

    BlackRedDead Member

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    oh, well my bad - resistences are a bit irritating/confusing for me with all the unecessary entrys^^
    (small arms can be just equalised with nonarmor dmg in my eyes...)
     
  19. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    bump, still should be moved into "under consideration"?
     
  20. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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