Concept: NF Tank Destroyer

Discussion in 'Art' started by VulcanStorm, May 29, 2016.

  1. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Hi all

    I figured I'd mock up a tank destroyer model for NF, so here it is.


    It's loosely based on the NF artillery tank idea- big gun, small chassis.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    Thoughts?

    Turret angles: +- 20 degrees
    Barrel angles: +- 10 degrees

    Please bear in mind that this is an initial concept, not a finished product!
     
  2. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Ok, after some feeback from the dev team, here is a revised concept. It no longer looks like a cannon on oversized tracks, and hopefully a person can now fit in it :/

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Turret Angles: +- 15 degrees
    Barrel Angles: +- 10 degrees
     
  3. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    So I've added some stuff, Some engine exhaust pipes at the back, a nice spiked grill at the front, and made the tracks a bit more distinctive. Also reshaped the barrel

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Thoughts?

    edit: oh yeah, and added a driver viewport
     
  4. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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    Looks good, will it be able to aim down at all?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  5. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, it currently has 15 degress of rotation on the turret left and right, and 10 degrees on the barrel up and down.

    for a total field of fire of 30 degrees on the turret, and 20 degrees on the barrel
     
  6. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    Lower its profile, tank destroyers have low profile for a reason... id say about the height of a light tank. I know those tracks they are pretty iconical for NF but they would not work for a tank destroyer that needs to be aware of his surroundings constantly. and would make this model inherently worse then any be model.

    Therefore i suggest lowering the tracks or giving it a thread feel like this;

    http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/vehicles/Whippet-Tank/IMAGES/Title-Whippet-Profile.jpg

    I know this would be a lot of change, but i just want to prevent another fubar ifv/apc scenario.
     
  7. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Then the turret would have to be fixed in place... Since tank destroyers were decided to only fire forwards... And so the driver couldn't see around himself anyway

    But yeah, it could be done.
     
  8. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    if you add a turret then the only reason why this cant turn 360° is because of the absurdly large tracks (tracks are weakpoints, they should only be as large as absolutely neccessary and also only visible where you cant protect them because it would limit their use). the tank destroyers i know of all* usually have a single hull with the barrel mounted in a way so you can move it to the sides aswell. a turret is a weakpoint, but its a risk reward thing ...

    ... in the end tank destroyers are dumb - tanks are tank destroyers already. thus why in modern armies you basically only have a main battle tank. rest is wheeled because its cheaper, lighter, less complex, and easier to maintain. (so far i can only think of some sophisticated utility vehicles like bridge building tanks as exceptions)

    *edit:
    tank destroyer is a quite weak definition. us m36 from ww2 had a rotating turret but was considered a tank destroyer. its more of a role than a design.
    germans StuG, often considerd a tank destroyer, by name only is a "storm/attack gun", doesnt say much about anti tank use
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  9. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    So smaller tracks then? OK, and probably a turret change

    I just figured that large tracks of that size were NF's thing

    Edit: the artillery code actually adds an invisible turret to the tank, it's hard coded as a work-around, even though it doesn't have one. So I figured the tank destroyer may as well have a turret to save extra special cases in the code
     
  10. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    oh yeah - while were at "its a NF thing" - please consider making the two silhouettes very similar.
    i know its hard because design theory also states make them distinct, yet it will be a lot easier to balance and not end up with a great and shite tank destroyer (much like be heavy is great and drives like a racecar, while nf's is a barn on tracks and drives like a refridgerator on crack)
     
  11. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    Id prefer a tank that has no turret for both sides, to differentiate between tank destroyers and normal tanks, but let the devs sort that out, you focus on your ideal model.

    Usually tank destroyers are tanks built and supplied to work outside panzer units, they either spearhead right after the scouting mobile infantry ready to provide anti tank support if needed, but more often set up an ambush and lay in wait when the mobile infantry retreat at the first sight of trouble... (if you are a nazi at least, thats how the StuG was used a lot)

    The 'no turret' had more to do with the fact that a tank destroyer was not supposed to go toe to toe in a mobile battle anyway and was supposed to be cheap and easy to control by mainly infantry devisions. It would always attack from a stationary, hidden position outraging and or flanking the enemy. mostly by surprise and if it could not do that it would retreat. Normal tanks were used in ww2 in a "tank destroyer" role, but usually there were dedicated tanks with modifications for this. Like the StuG, an armoured support artillery piece turned into anti tank field gun.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  12. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    So I made some more changes, how's this looking?

    Re-did the barrel and removed the turret.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Thoughts?

    current firing angles:
    "turret" (left and right gun rotation): +- 20 degrees
    barrel (up and down rotation): +-10 degrees

    that's actually quite a lot of downwards barrel rotation btw, considering that almost all our tanks currently have none, except for NF heavy, which has 5 degrees
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  13. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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    Downwards is going to be needed, especially if this tank is going to serve any purpose on hilly maps. As for the stationary turret, I think it looks better than the turret that was mobile. Are the tracks going to stay or are they going to be lowered? Just wondering.

    Might I recommend a Muzzle Brake at the end of the barrel as well to prevent the barrel from looking like a pipe sticking out of a hunk of Iron? Adds some more pizaz to the tank appearance as well
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  14. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    This actually looks pretty sweet, not entirely sold on the warhammer ork style exhausts, probably tuck them in a bit more?
    Turret looks sweet, tracks look far better already, but would look in giving them a bit more detail on the sides (since its a piece of the tank you will be looking at a lot and its basically just flat)

    One more suggestion, try out some ideas to visualize a strong forward Armour
     
  15. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    from the front there should be no plate perpendicular to the floor (at least no big areas). the reason tank armor is angled is that it increases armor thickness without increasing actual armor thickness by the magic of geometry.
    [​IMG]

    its taking a good direction though. sry i only say "negative" things. dont let me disencourage you, i dont mean to, but what does it help if i just say "looks good so far".

    also something i want to mention. because devs said youll need a turret where someone can sit in. i like the first concept of the gun a lot (especially for nf). if there is an autoload mechnism, the driver could very well sit in the hull. do you have a human/player model to put next to the vehicle for size comparisons?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  16. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    where does the guy sit in light tanks?

    Also sloped armour isnt the end all be all of tank armour, since your slab needs to increase in size too. In your picture the slabs are all different lengths
     
  17. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    I was using the original picture on Donald's thread as inspiration for the tank destroyer, along with the current team styles.
    Can be found here on Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant

    if you look at the NF tanks, none of them have muzzle brakes... So I'm unsure if it will fit the style. They're all just pipes sticking out.

    I'm thinking of adding armour plates to the front of the tracks, any other suggestions on how to "armour-up" the tank?
    Perhaps a snow plow instead of the spiked bar...

    And what do you think would work well on the sides?
    I was thinking ladder, spare cannon shells, some boxes or small fuel cans like the other NF tanks.
     
  18. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    certainly not spare shells :D

    to add to the brainstorm: spare track pieces, ladder, door, a spade, small boxes with undefined contents and ofc bolts and welded plate seams, nothing says nf more than bolted iron plates.
    if you want external fuel canisters they should be on the back.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  19. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    So I added some bigger armoured plates on the front, and made the turret less blocky. The exhaust pipes have been brought forward.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Thoughts?

    same angles as before:
    turret: +-20
    barrel: +-10
     
  20. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    what size is this?

    you also get the effect by not positioning yourself head on to the target. much like reflective works in empires, just that it doesnt reflect anything. its the reasoning behind angled armor, i didnt make that up. also i wouldnt say its neccessarily more since if you cut away from a rectangle the remaining perimeter is less - though ofc you cant tell if its added or cut away, since its designed like that.
    and i didnt mean to say its the end all be all armor solution or there wouldnt be reactive armor - which has its own downsides. IRL the best armor is not getting hit in the first place, thus why you have all sorts of electronic devices and try to fight outside view distance. but tanks have no major role on a modern battlefield anymore anyway, its all about air superiority.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016

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