[Considering] Make PlayerModels Fade with Distance

Discussion in 'Rejected' started by PreDominance, Jan 26, 2010.

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  1. soundspawn

    soundspawn Member

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    I'm a man always after an elegant solution. Although your solution fixes the problem, it feels forced. For example, what if people decided that getting killed with the shotty pistol at more than 20 feets was stupid (even if they were at 1 health) so we made the models dissapear beyond that range if you equipped shotty? Yes it keeps people from shooting at that range, but it's also a wtf in the "makes sense" department. I think we can find a better answer than this.

    This is the same kind of thing as 9mine to me, the result you want (remote mine detonation) using a function that makes no sense (drop a mine and suddenly BOOM from across the map).

    I'm reading your suggestion again and it sounds like what we could call "building style fade" which is really just "show or don't show based on distance". Do you actually mean real fading like scout with hide, because that may be an idea... 100% invisible beyond X yards, 100% visiable within Y yards, gradient between. That with well balanced falloff damage could make something I could get excieted about.
     
  2. PreDominance

    PreDominance Member

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    Simply put: alpha color fades with distance (factoring in Z [height], right?)?

    I didn't know that was in your capability, but that certainly is a better solution.
     
  3. soundspawn

    soundspawn Member

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    Yes, I think we balance that (distance for 100 alpha, and distance for 0 alpha, factor in height modifier) against some smart falloff damage values, and we have a system.

    I must say, you are on a bit of a roll with the ideas.
     
  4. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Go read some of my old suggestions.
     
  5. soundspawn

    soundspawn Member

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    Links and me reads
     
  6. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Don't hate just because someone else got through :p
     
  7. Sandbag

    Sandbag Member

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    Possibly the worst suggestion i've read in a long time. it's not just bad, it's dangerous because it's misleading.

    This is, in every way possible, a huge (picture that word in 50ft letters) graphical downgrade. fading units at a distance is what early 2000's games did to save memory management. Thankfully, we don't need to do it now because it's an ugly ugly affair.

    One of the epic things about empires is watching a battle going on in the distance. One of the best things empires has going for it is that you see things going on in the distance, battles and so forth, that you can't influence- you watch enemies setting up turrets on the far side of the lake on slaughtered, or a squad rushing across the hills opposite you in isle.

    I've had encounters in empires where me and an enemy have seen each other from a long way away but ran towards each other to get into range

    do you know what a rare thing it is in a [hitscan] FPS that you see the encounter before it occours and can plan for it, that you enguage the enemies when they're at the right range for you instead of just shooting everything that moves? It's a massive strength of empires, one of the few things that turns uninteresting weapons and movement of empires players into something really different and fun.

    what the shit?



    What predom is complaining about is where you can get hs'd from range. at a long range, it's totally impossible to aim for the head, which means getting hs'd and subsequently killed very quickly is the equivilant of having taken a TF2 style 'crit'. Remove long range headshots.

    You can also introduce a small damage fall off. TF2 has a huge damage fall off, and people don't complain- a small reasonable one in empires would allow players not to take too much damage at range would be fine.
     
  8. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Sandbag, are you familiar with the term pixel sniping?
    those two words basically nullify your whole argument.
    You don't get to do any of those things because of the god damn pixel sniping.
     
  9. Sandbag

    Sandbag Member

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    I'm not saying that the scripts arn't too damaging at range, actually I said that the weapons would be improved if there was a slight fall off. But you go play empires and then come back to me and tell me that you shoot everything that moves.

    Seriously, do this. Try shooting the pixels of people emerging from a barracks at their home base from the hills on dust storm, or shoot the BE players rushing west on the north cliffs of isle while you are on the west cliff.

    Also, "nullify your whole argument"? What you mean to say is that in your experience, the damage at long range with the current weapons is great enough that people are engaging in combat at too high a range, which means that although in some open sections of maps people will not open fire, in the majority of combat situations, people are shooting everything that moves.

    ultimately, what this discussion is going to lead to is that we need to find a balance between the following:

    -weakness in weapons so that the distance of engagement (especially for rifleman who will naturally have a longer range) isn't so far that it's frustrating to play against.

    -weapons "feeling" right. Players will indeed complain that the weapons suck, even if they all equally weak and so it's balanced.

    If you articulate what you say instead of just blurting out what you feel then we will reach a solution instead of chasing each other in circles.
     
  10. PreDominance

    PreDominance Member

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    Aye aye aye..


    Phew, that was an eyesore. Please use less words, kthnx!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  11. Metal Smith

    Metal Smith Member

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    Screw this, add sway to rifles when viewing through the sites.

    It makes it a huge pain in the ass to aim most times.


    How do I know this is a shit Idea?

    because I've tried forcing a limited amount of visibility with Z clipping plane on delta. Everyone fucking hates not being able to see shit.

    Remember, the commander is nothing more than an invisible player, thus all of this applies to him. If you can't see people at 5000 units away, neither can the commander.
     
  12. PreDominance

    PreDominance Member

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    The comm can easily move around mass distances at a time. What's your probl- OH WAIT. THIS'LL PREVENT TARGET-SPAMMING. SHIT, 2 BIRDS WITH ONE STONE.

    :|ove:
     
  13. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Ugh, Metal Smith has a point. I can easily see viewmodel fading being as annoying in its own way as all the alternatives.

    ...honestly, while this might seem a bit out of place, I wouldn't mind getting rid of headshots with most weapons. They're part of what makes it easy to die so quickly from ultra-long-range sniping. I don't feel that they really add that much anymore... they've just become a convention that people add to games without really thinking about.

    We could also -- and I'm sure people will dislike this, but it has to be said -- we could also remove ironsights. Pretty much all it's for is sniping. It's bizarre that we're trying to remove sniping on one hand, but have a 'sniper mode' for all the rifleman weapons on the other hand.
     
  14. Empty

    Empty Member

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    No they aren't how often do you see headshot icons?
    Once in a never.

    They only do 2x damage anyway, headshots are piss weak in empires.
     
  15. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    why is this stickied?
     
  16. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Here. Things the devs are considering working on will be stickied now, so we can focus our discussions on them, raise objections, complain, etc.

    I think it's a good idea. I distinctly remember that in the last few versions we would often get changes completely out of the blue with no warning that the devs were thinking about them (MKiis in particular came out of nowhere IIRC.) Having sticky threads for the stuff that's under consideration gives us a chance to discuss them more thoroughly.
     
  17. soundspawn

    soundspawn Member

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    Remember that as a developer we have more tools at our disposal to achieve an effect. So lifting this z-filter when in comm view would take 2-8 lines of code in the right places.

    As for the infantry, what do you prefer, being able to see someone and can't hit them/do 1 damage, or can't really seem them but your bullets could still sting if you were to hit them?

    To clarify my thought, right now draw distance is what, 5000? So instead we make it 6000 (remember 2.25 has had optimizations so we have some room to increase values if needed) and between 3000 and 6000 we have alpha blending to fade the infantry. Leave buildings just showing up all the sudden (as they do now) and leave terrain alone... just alpha blend the infantry to avoid long range sniping but not completely disable combat over distance.
     
  18. Empty

    Empty Member

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    But if a guy is at 50% alpha I can still see him easily.

    If you want proof?
    Scouts with hide.
    Seriously.
     
  19. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    id say dont patch up the problem with some arbitrary fix like fading out people

    attack the root, the silly weapon scripts dont balance with fallof but with accuracy!
     
  20. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Just do what every other source game does, aimcones which don't change and balance off them.

    I mean, if you can't actually snipe anyone at any range with any weapon because of innaccuracy, you're gunna have to move yourself up close to fight.
     
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