Chris Discussion

Discussion in 'Game Play' started by spellman23, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    this i fully agree with - apart from that - i see the same problems ikalx pointed out some posts above ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  2. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Sadly i'm not going to know if i've already that or not, as you didn't provide a link. However, i'll assume the system you designed is airtight and flawless.

    Assuming that, it will mean that veterans will provide buildings because they in turn get to drive a big tank with lots of bells and whistles from the money the building provides. And newbies will have enticement to get to know the game better so that they too can drive a big tank and have a rocket in their pocket.

    True. Although it would have to be generally agreed to be stupid, a majority which you do not have, or the solution would have to be perfect, something you cannot claim.

    Presuming we removed the commander and all it's failed functionality from the game, and in its place we gave people the ability to place buildings, gave them personal research and skills, how would a game play?

    Where would the central base be? Would bases expand in the same sectors they do currently? Would people actually care about saving ruins and it's barracks, vehicle factory and all important refineries, or would they not give a damn at all because someone else built those things from their own money, and they can save it, if they want it so bad...? For that matter, would refineries even exist? - would they provide a base income to each player on the team individually?

    What would an amalgamation of personal research and personal skills be like? Would it be a lot more like an RPG system? What part of Empires would be strategic in the new climate? How would victory be achieved? What would be the incentives for people to actually work together? With the regulation of a team removed, very skilled people will be able to get a nuke tank fairly quickly in comparison to the rest of the players, what will stop them dominating the game? Will a skilled fps'er be able to get a lot of money and kills pretty easily, and be able to defeat an enemy team easily? Would one skilled person be able to defeat a team of newbies?

    If you're serious, then these are all questions I would ask.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  3. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    There wouldn't be a central base, there isn't a central base now, there's just the location of the CV, the base itself is usually one of at least two fully equipped bases. Bases would be set up where they are needed, for example you cap refs, someone drops a rax there because that's a good spot to set up a base, and they will then get res from everyone spawning at it, then someone builds a VF because they get res from people buying tanks after they spawn at the rax, then someone builds a radar because the closest radar to the player when he chooses to spend cash on a new research for his tree gets a commision, so you would get radars placed closer to the front every time it moves, which basically means one in every base. The overall effect is that you develop a base because people are in the area and that means money if they use your stuff, then when you move on, the base stays there, same effect as now, different method of creating it.

    Res nodes give res to players so players would defend res nodes, and the rax/vf nearby because they need those TO defend the res nodes, the buildings provide functionality which is the same reason you defend them now, to keep that functionality. That doesn't change because you have a VF somewhere else that gives you cash, you still need the one here to keep the res flow.

    See the point is these base buildings give you only a small part of your income, the majority comes from refs, the buildings just give you enough to cover the cost of building them (plus you get the functionality as mentioned) and then maybe a bit on the top, but the main income is from refs, so even the biggest property baron will only perhaps double his tank output, everyone should be able to field a good tank, just maybe not every minute, maybe every four, and a building or two lowers that to maybe three minutes.

    Personal research is exactly like global research except it only applies to the player who does it. You could probably keep the costs and the times identical, it would slow the game down a bit but it would work. You pick the stuff to unlock for you, everyone else picks their stuff.

    Victory is achieved by blowing up all enemy buildings. If you do that they've obviously lost. The strategic part would be the bit where you all get tanks and go shoot everyone because someone on the mic said so, which is exactly what you do now.

    A team could get a nuke tank quickly if that team member went straight for nukes, but that would take the same amount of time as it currently does if not longer because they could easily have a lack of resources to research the expensive techs (I would suggest perhaps capping the max res, so you can't stockpile it, this would give good incentive to cap refs because the res INCOME rather than the res you have would be the determining factor.

    No nuke tank can stand up to a mass of other tanks, if they can get a nuke, the other team can get meds or super mk2s.

    Honestly I am not changing the stuff that happens, you still get tanks, and one tank still cannot win the game, it's just empires except all the bases build themselves and the prick on the mic doesn't have a commander badge, unless of course you keep the comm in which case he does and he can still yell at you from the sky camera.
     
  4. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Fair enough. Last question then; if you had to implement this in stages alongside current empires gameplay, how would you do it? (let's assume that you care whether people playing the current version of Empires get put off).
     
  5. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Well I don't because the only ones who complain are the ones on the forum, new players wouldn't know any different. A few dozen forum tards is hardly a great loss considering most of them don't play anyway.

    If you had to do something so stupid as implementing half an idea I would suggest adding in vehicle building deployment (buy a vehicle, drive it somewhere, deploy into building) and personal cash, as those two systems should operate independently of the rest of the game, then implement all the new squad leader stuff, then the personal research, then start removing comm powers like building stuff because it would mess with the idea that having to drive a vehicle there would stop instant development of an area, and add in some more command functions for the comm, like standing orders that display on people's hud at all times, visual overlays like supreme commander that mark people with little icons so you can see them, that sort of thing.

    I would still suggest just implementing it all at once though because implementing half of it would just make the game feel even more half assed and there is no reason to do it, if it takes a lot of time to change then just don't release it until it's done, you are not compelled to release every little change you make instantly.
     
  6. Empty

    Empty Member

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    I don't think I'm alone when I say that if you take steps towards removing empire's commander you will be taking steps away from it's diehard fans, I don't play a huge amount, but I love the features we have at the moment. I feel that most features should stay despite their flaws. They're what makes this game special.
     
  7. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Like you and me, eh? ;)

    Except that you know that a little change takes Empires 6 months, a large change like this could take 3 years. The change from 1.071 to 2.0 took about 2 years, right? The changes in gameplay there weren't massive in comparison. Are you diehard enough to still be playing in 3 years without any updates to the game :confused:
     
  8. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i think you would agree empiresmod can be made better, so what CAN we change then to make it better?
     
  9. Empty

    Empty Member

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    I suggest a lot of stuff. Some of it get's general consensus. Little of it gets thought about.

    So I make my effects.
     
  10. Omneh

    Omneh Member

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    That kind of change wouldn't take that long if we had a decent, organised and dedicated development team (not really an attack on the current dev team, they all have better things to be doing and I respect and understand that)
     
  11. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Well duh.

    When are people gonna wake up and realise we have what we have, and no amount of "joo do dis nao" will get it done in the timing you want it. It's obvious we can only make small changes, but supposedly intelligent people keep pushing their massive overhauls without giving breakdowns. Why we gotta push for a breakdown is beyond me.
     
  12. Meliarion

    Meliarion Member

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    Chris as it stands I believe that your idea has some very large flaws, specificaly the lack of any built in systems to manage greifing or dispute resolution and the fact that instead of solving empires commander related problems it magnifies them by making them affect the entire team.

    Sometimes I wonder if a lot of people have me on ignore, considering how few respond to my posts.
     
  13. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i still have an empty ignore list ... :o
     
  14. Empty

    Empty Member

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    TLDR
    Chris wants to remove comm, research meaning anything, any and all incentives for teamwork and the assignment of duties to each player. (Don't any of you comms tell me you've told your nooblets to hold out of the VF for a certain vet.)

    Comms are awesome, but they're flawed. Rather than introducing a completely different stupid method of gameplay that basically tears everything unique about our game out, let's try and fix the flaws.
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    As I've said before, just because nobody is capable of doing things does not mean they don't need to be done, this is not a huge overhaul because it uses existing elements in new ways, you can use the same comm interface, the same research tree interface, the same techs, the same vehicles, the same everything, all you have to do is move it around and make minor changes to how it affects the game. I did put effort into making this as easy to implement as possible.

    TLDR empty, as usual, is retarded and doesn't think about anything he does.
     
  16. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I have been over this, it removes them because it averages them over the entire team, as long as about half the team knows how to manage their own research (and, naturally, it is much easier to pick a useful thing, because even plasma meds would be useful if only one or two people used them. Most research only sucks because it doesn't work when EVERYONE uses it, so as long as people research an armor, engine, and weapon they should be fine.) then the entire team is OK. There's definitely going to be one or two people on the team at least placing buildings, anyone who knows what raxes do and where they go can perform that aspect of the commander WITHOUT HAVING TO BE THE COMM. A lot of people are put off commanding because it's not much fun for most of us, but I certainly wouldn't object to placing buildings with vehicles where neccesary if they gave me money for them and I got to use them afterwards.

    That's the entire point of this, it solves the problem of commander skill by connecting it to average team skill which is, by definition, average. If you have a team entirely composed of noobs you'll lose, but you can't do anything about that, however currently even if you have a good team, if you don't have a good comm, you'll still lose. Under this system a decent team will always perform decently. Arguably it is far more teamwork based than the current system because the team determines the team's performance.

    As I said, read the other thread, click my name and look for threads I posted, then find the one which lists lots of general game changes, i.e http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=10649 This outlines most of the systems I am suggesting.

    If you need someone to stop people griefing you've designed the game badly, you shouldn't make the game griefable, there are no new griefing abilities in my suggestion and many are removed with the absence of the comm.
     
  17. Meliarion

    Meliarion Member

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    Chris I have read the thread in question and understood it in is entirety although you seem to have misunderstood my points, I am referring to the points that I have made earlier in the thread and have quoted below.
     
  18. Deadpool

    Deadpool SVETLANNNAAAAAA

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    positive overall evolution HAS come from small suggestions posted on these forums. i just hope the devs are wise enough to know this and not be influenced by the squeakiest wheel empires has ever seen.
     
  19. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    You can already disrupt the game heavily by walling off areas, just because the comm can recycle them doesn't mean you can't instantly redrop them in front of the VF, or force the comm to keep knocking more holes in the wall which is keeping the enemy tanks from advancing, or stop a vital rush by your forces, the point is that nobody does that.

    Commander recycling does not stop wall griefing, people just don't seem very inclined to do it, if wall griefing is a problem the walls need to be changed, you don't simply put someone on the team whose primary responsibility is preventing griefers, that's retarded, you design the game in the first place so that it can't be griefed. In the unlikely event that someone finds a way to disrupt the game, you ban them from the server, that's what kickvotes and admins are for, but it should never be possible to do it so often that you need to implement a feature into the game itself to counter the inevitable griefers.

    So what if a new player goes straight for heavies? He'll learn it doesn't work very well, although really speaking we should balance it so that there aren't any totally imbalanced strategies, but someone going for heavies is no more stupid than someone seeing level 3 turrets and thinking they're the best thing ever, or trying to use the HMG for everything because HMGs are obviously the best gun in the game because they're HMGs. It's just something you learn as you play the game. Ideally of course people would instantly know the best strategies, but if they don't it's not a huge issue because, as I said, the rest of the team is there to pick up the slack while they learn. As I said most strategies result in giving you a better tank, so which particular one you have doesn't matter, because if your team has a few people not doing too well with the research, the enemy team should also have a few people in that position, again this is the law of averages coming into play. As for people who join halfway through, as with the money idea I suggested in the other thread, save research time, so the time elapsed from the start is like a 'time pool' of sorts and you can spend those built up seconds on research, so if you're a minute in and haven't researched anything, you can do a minute's research instantly, to put you at the same tech level as everyone else, it also means you don't have to stop in combat to do research. For anyone thinking 'oMG instant research imbalance!' just consider that it is far more sensible to research things as you go, because while after about fifteen minutes it would be possible to go straight from paper lights to full heavies, it would mean you'd been using paper lights for fifteen minutes, whereas if you unlocked it as you went, you could use mk2s and guns for the intervening period.

    If you simplify the commander to the point anybody can do it, nobody will want to because there won't be anything to do. If there are lots of things to do, then a lot of people won't be able to do them all, a commander is a team member who is forced to perform superbly or else the game falls to bits, or he is a team member who is forced to do repetitive, unentertaining tasks all game, you can't make it complex enough to be interesting because that makes it too hard for a lot of people and you can't make it simple because that makes it too boring for a lot of people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
  20. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Mmm...well, I can't deny it's an idea worth looking into. I just didn't realise you were that optimistic Chris. It really needs a test - i'll see you in 2014 for it.
     

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