poll: teleological ethical paradigms

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by pickled_heretic, Oct 14, 2009.

?

Of the two, which do you prefer? (More information in body)

  1. ethical egoism

    7 vote(s)
    36.8%
  2. utilitarianism

    12 vote(s)
    63.2%
  1. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    if this

    doesn't apply to you, then you are a utilitiarian. If you act in a fashion where you consider the effects on other people of the consequences of your actions, then you are a utilitarian, or at least that component of your behavior is fundamentally utilitarian. I actually find it hard to believe that one could consider these two analogous, though I suppose it's possible if you just sort of became illiterate halfway through reading the definition of egoism. It's kind of like saying atheism and theism are the same because they're both concerned with the truth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  2. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I always act in my own best interest, regardless of the interests of others, however I also think that what is in my best interest is always what is in the best interest of others because that will confer the greatest long term benefit on me, so I also always act based on what is in the greatest interest of the greatest number of people and I am acutely aware of this, in order to act in my best interest I must act in the best interest of others, so I must be utilitarian, and I do it for egoistic reasons.

    So you can either say I'm an egoist who just happens to have a very odd view of what constitutes my best interest, or you can say I'm a utilitarian who enjoys being utilitarian, or you can be sensible and say I'm both.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  3. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    Do you act in a manner which suggests that you act in the interests of others?
     
  4. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Yes, solely because I think it benefits me more than any other mode of action.

    I don't do it because it's good, I do it because it's practical.

    Seriously stop trying to make the two antithetical when they aren't.
     
  5. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    then you're a utilitarian.
     
  6. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Yes, and an egoist/egotist, because I also fulful the criteria for that as well.
     
  7. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    sigh...

    Can X and !X be simultaneously true or simultaneously false?
     
  8. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Assuming !x means not-x then no, but as I said, egoism and utilitarianism are not antithetical, they do not oppose each other, they are two possible sets of conditions which are not mutually exclusive.

    If you believe that ensuring general happiness is the best way to ensure your own happiness, then the best way to be egoist, and ensure your own happiness, is to be utilitarian, and ensure the happiness of everyone you can, just as the best way to get to work is to drive a car, or the best way to kill someone is to shoot them, utilitarianism is as much a means as it is an end, especially when you talk about it in terms of its practical results rather than its moral implications.

    The only reason the two would conflict is if you saw general happiness and your own happiness to be opposing, in which case, how unfortunate for you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  9. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    okay, so if the statement "I always act in my own best interest, regardless of the interests of others" was true, then "I do not always act in my own best interest, regardless of the interests of others" would necessarily be false?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  10. Emp_Recruit

    Emp_Recruit Member

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    The end result can be the same. The process can't be.
     
  11. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Assume I'm egoist, I act in my own best interest first and foremost to the exclusion of all other considerations.

    I have decided that it is in my best interest to ensure that people in general are happy and get on well, because this is likely to produce a good image for me, and also produce a nice environment for me to live in.

    Now the only way I can avoid being utilitarian (ensuring everyone is doing OK) is by not acting in what I percieve to be my best interest (because that, as far as I'm concerned, is in my best interest), which would mean I'm not egoist either, in fact, trying not to be ultilitarian would make me utilitarian because my motivation for not being utilitarian would be conformity and compliance with the wishes of people who don't think the two philosophies can be combined, and that would be thinking of the concerns of others before myself.

    The instant utilitariansim stops being in my best interest I will stop practising it, but until then, I will. To do otherwise would be decidedly non-egoist. What you're basically saying is that an egoist can act in his own best interest as long as he doesn't think it's in his best interest to cooperate with anybody to further his own ends. There is a reason the phrase 'enlightened self-interest' exists.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  12. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    can you please answer this question for me, assuming that you accept that X and not X cannot be simultaneously true or simultaneously false:

     
  13. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I can.
     
  14. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    would you please?
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No, but I will point out the reasons why you shouldn't be asking it.

    The premise of the question is flawed, it is based entirely on sticking to the letter of a badly worded definition of egoism, and in order to be a valid question must ridicule the entire debate.
     
  16. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    I don't see how egoism is at issue, in the statements I have presented to you I see no invocation of the word "egoism." Now would you please answer the question?
     
  17. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I don't know.

    Until I do or don't and collapse the waveform the outcome is indeterminate.
     
  18. beatandgo

    beatandgo Member

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    I believe that's how humanity has managed to prosper so well. The other hand is Egoism, which is for those who just don't give a fuck about anything or anybody and tend to solo life, aka the loner.
     
  19. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    we are assuming that one of these alternatives is true, and that we accept that the logic that X and !X can never be simultaneously true and false. With those parameters in mind (which were clearly outlined the first time I posted the question) would you please answer the question?
     
  20. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No because I don't actually exist because you cannot observe me. Something which does not exist cannot answer questions.
     

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