Fixing the "Slippery slope"

Discussion in 'Game Play' started by Omneh, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. zenarion

    zenarion Member

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    The slope needs to be more slippery, really.
    Screw games that are longer than 30 minutes, with both teams doing nothing but "spawn, go to frontline, shoot some, die, repeat", or those grand stalemates we used to have before.
     
  2. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Yes but it shouldn't boil down to one person going to the wrong place at the start.

    The game should start stable, then become less stable as it progresses to make it more likely to end the longer it goes on.
     
  3. zenarion

    zenarion Member

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    Yes, exactly. It is bad enough that new people aren't trusted as commanders, or can screw up a game by mistake right at the start, but this should not be changed to "nothing happens in three hours".
     
  4. Demented

    Demented Member

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    That's probably close to how Empires would play out. As tanks get stronger, the ability of one person/vehicle to destroy a base and deliver a crippling blow increases. However, a lack of map control and resources quickly presses the pause button on a team's ability to participate in Empires.
     
  5. Scylla

    Scylla Member

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    Read to page 10 got bored

    so i read to page 10 and got bored but i think the simplest solution is to 1 make grens stronger 2 tanks can no longer be repaired by an engi 3 repair pads cost 400 4 repair pads dont repair the chassis(they still repair armor) 5 repair pads repair slower and only one tank can fit on them at a time ( ive seen 3 people using one repair pad)
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  6. aaaaaa50

    aaaaaa50 Member

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    Here is a hint for posting: When you say "I think", you should also say "because" and explain to people why you think whatever it is you are proposing.

    Also, taking a few minutes to try using some good grammar and formatting never hurt anyone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
  7. Scylla

    Scylla Member

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    O rly now? I know a guy that got hit by a car while editing his work on a labtop. Also you spelt minutes wrong in your post.
    Why? because grens are "free" and tanks are not so removing the ability to repair tanks easily causes the tanks to dies easily and each hit on the chassis creates permanent damage so eventually the tank will blow up. Stronger starting grens allows comebacks even with out being able to research and the increased cost and limit on usage prevents repair pad spam (maybe not 400 maybe like 300ish?) Better?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2009
  8. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Amazingly the idea is not completely stupid.

    Grens could act as a stabiliser, in the early game they should pose a major threat to tanks, enough to make attacking with tanks hard, then as the game runs on, they become less effective unless you spend money on them (personally I'd say make them buy better RPGs every life, like tanks).

    But you still need to address the map control element, whoever gets initial map control will become steadily better and better, so you need to make it impossible to get map control at the start.

    As I suggested, moving all the resources away from the middle should help, so no team can capture more of them, the middle should be a no mans land which you have to fight across, but which holds no advantage other than controlling it meaning you don't have to fight past it.

    Then you add in small bonuses like 1 res per second flags, good defensive positions, then steadily go into the real stuff like a ref or two, then a major base location, then the final base.
     
  9. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i would agree with the general grenadier thing but if grens can "buy" a better rpg then every gren will do it making the choice to do or not do a little bit redundant

    what about giving grens a choice between missiles

    example:

    he missile (more blast and damage, located in chemestry)
    ap missile (more damage and speed located in psychics)
    bio missile (bio damage, biology)
    heat missile (more speed and agility and delivers a substantial amount of heat )

    more

    so grens have a choice in stead of autoclicking the "better" missile

    and also make the commander generate some resources
     
  10. Scylla

    Scylla Member

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    Thanks, i think?

    Either you make the map completely linear if you dont the same thing will happen or you make the middle refs highly disputed so they couldn't be built untill one team had a secure area or in smaller areas where buildings wouldn't fit so puting refs in choke points where barracks wouldn't fit would really help so that the barracks arn't next to each other and they have a chance to build up like by the bridge on emp_sluaghtered (each has a rax on one side except they couldnt be in direct sight of each other) maybe on my other idea better starting gren mortar against builds? so gren + ammo :headshot: barracks. Anyway does anyone have any NEW idea's?:confused:

    Edit: someone mentioned sowhere eariler that the commander should generate res like 25% of all map res all the time on top of everything else

    Good idea but to diversified He missle would replace adv gren rpg right? ap would be Op its so close to alot of really good things speed isn't really that much of a bonus since u can guide the rockets bio would be fine btw what catergory is heat missile in and what does ap stand for?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2009
  11. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    It's about as close as I get to a compliment.

    Yes you'd have to make the maps pretty linear, although simply putting the ref nodes in well protected areas would help, spawning turrets automatically etc. But linearity is not really a bad thing, you could make it so the map is a bit different every time, spawning gates to block off paths and ensuring wide enough paths to make it a bit more three dimensional.
     
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    infantry research is stupid.
    (with our current research system)

    whereever you put it, unless you make it cost 10res and take 1second to research noone ever gonna research it - maybe if all the other stuff got reserached already.

    tanks > grens

    so why waste time and money on them? look at upg/adv gren. sometimes ppl get it as NF because they try ABS - and its in chem, and when you get UMLs its not so far of. but thats EXTREMELY rare. anyway, they will first get armor, engine, weapons, and chassis. so it still is something you get when the game is decided already.

    and getting it for the losing team is no real option either, because you often dont have the time and money to start reseraching on it.

    god cmon, we already had that discussions couple of times ... i dont need to explain all that again do i?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  13. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Alternatively, combine infantry and tank research so they automatically scale together.
     
  14. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    yes that would work too, but a seperate research already failed (we have that right now and it didnt work out)
     
  15. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    example that invalidates your point: adv gren now gives 1000 extra damage. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?

    therefore, if an extreme case which makes your point invalid exists, there must be a compromise available where it would be likely to be researched but not be too powerful. 500 damage? 250? 150? etc.
     
  16. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    grenadiers are supposed to play a anti-tank roll so they need to be given a tool to fulfill what they are intended to and you cant make this tool rely on research. its like youd have to research something for the engi tool so at some point he eventually is able to build a barracks on his own.

    but research for upg/adv gren can stay as long as the base damage is somehow dependend on the tank-type you are facing.

    and i mainly want it scaleing so that light tanks still stand a chance. because that whats the real problem. if you just buff the RPG you make it overpowered in early game, if you leave it like it is, it gets obsolete in late game.

    i didnt say you should need 2 RPG shots to kill any tank you face. i also didnt say there shouldnt be differences depending on what and how many armor you outfit.
    but there need to be a way, and i think you only can archieve this through scaling with chassis, to enable the grenadier to fulfill his roll throughout the game without the need for individual research.

    also having only one infantry research thing is not very consistent and imaginative.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  17. Scylla

    Scylla Member

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    Maybe a grenadier upgrade skill unlocked at the start so if you want it you can't take other useful skills like speed or ammo increase, also as the game conitunes you can get other skills (with points) upgrading your gren with out research. On the topic of rpg being OP either a more powerful one unlocks after i certain amount of time or its research there really no other way to do it.
    Maybe a grenadier upgrade skill unlocked at the start so if you want it you can't take other useful skills like speed or ammo increase, also as the game conitunes you can get other skills (with points) upgrading your gren with out research. On the topic of rpg being OP either a more powerful one unlocks after i certain amount of time or its research there really no other way to do it.

    I feel as though some infanrty upgrades would help, stuff like more damage with guns, more nade range, unlock able types of guns? idk just theory im not really sure how this would fit in with everything else.

    Increase the cost of the chassis so like a Lt chassis cost 200 and a med cost 400 and a hvy cost 600 ect. so that tanks are very expensive. mark 2's could be 300 um thats about all my ideas
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  18. Kai

    Kai Member

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    Emphasize a bit more on infantry combat. Infantry research, perhaps?
     
  19. Omega_K2

    Omega_K2 Member

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    Agreed.
     
  20. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    tanks > infantry ...

    tanks are 100% immune to certain kind of weaponry - infantry aint.

    unless the complete research system gets changed (currently its only for tanks with those few "dirty hack" researches) i cant see how to implemet a infantry research system that actually will be used ...
     

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