Official Scout Thread Mrk II

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by DonMegel, Sep 23, 2009.

?

Should we?

  1. Do this now?

    17 vote(s)
    47.2%
  2. Do this with a few changes?

    11 vote(s)
    30.6%
  3. Don't do this.

    8 vote(s)
    22.2%
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  1. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    This is the revised proposal for the scout. Note: The poll is new.

    The scoped rifle will absolutely be removed.

    The role of the Scout must be changed to encourage team work. Teamwork has always been our a goal and right now the scout does nothing for the team and is encouraged to go off on his own rather than stick with his squad.

    For this we need to make the scout want to be with his squad and make his squad want someone to be a scout. Towards this end I feel that the scout should be an effective flanker, provide the squad information and support.

    The Scout only has 75% the health of other classes.

    Weapons:
    -The Scout may choose a shot gun or SMG (my concern is that the SMG will add enough range to make the scout over powered but this can be ironed out in testing)
    - Timed explosives with adjustable time. Fills anti building role.
    - Shock Mines, a specialised anti-infantry mine that kills with an enormous electric shock delivered through the foot of the victim. They also generate a flash that momentarily blinds nearby infantry. These mines are small and difficult to spot, although health upgrade can protect the player from a single mine. When an enemy soldier is killed by one of these mines, his body will jump around in a manner similar to combine soldiers killed by the super gravity gun in half life 2. Grenader mines will now only hurt vehicals.
    - Flare gun: Can be chosen instead of pistol. Flare reveals a wide area and shows its contents on the mini map (HUD in the case of infantry, like a camera does) When fired scout appears on enemy radar for life of the event and flare hovers over the area. Flare lasts 30 seconds and has a 60 second recharge time.

    If a scout is in a squad and in range of a friendly radar...
    - Then building health is always displayed on the HUD (like an Engy sees),
    - Class and health of enemy inf is displayed, maybe name too
    - Range of camera/radar is slightly increased.

    If no camera/radar is around...
    - Scout provides short range radar power when his Binocs are out.

    Binoculars: Will become the “Scout tool” but still look the same.
    - With Binocs out, but not looking through them, Primary fire brings up a build menu that allows Scout to drop engy camera/radar. These items would be removed from the Engy.
    - When looking through the Binocs, the Scout may “tag” enemy inf/vehics/buildings. These units appear on the mini map and on the HUD. Limit of 5. Artillery spotted message replaced with a soft beep. If unit that is tagged gets destroyed scout earns 1 point.
    - Binocs must be out to sabotage. Hit and hold Use while near the item to bring up progress bar. Sabotage limited to ONLY engy equipment and vehicals.
    -- Engy equipment switches sides (model changes too)
    -- Vehicals begin to over heat the longer they are sabotaged
    -- Sabotaging the commander shows all enemy units on the Mini map for 15 seconds. One minute cool down time.
    NOTE: If the scout is with the squad, and you are near a building, why sab it when you can blow it up? No more sabotaging builings.

    Range of squad powers increase when Scout is near the squad leader.

    Hide would remain.

    Skills:

    Jammer: When Binocs are out they no longer serve as a radar but rather a camera jammer. This means any team mates within range are not detected by enemy cameras or com “wall hacks”

    Martial arts skill: would allow scout to lunge up and forward at great speed, like a long jump, using up all of his stamina, instead of a longer, slower sprint. This is vital due to the short range weapons and flanking role of the scout. He must often move from cover to cover or quickly close the gap between an enemy.

    Artillery fire! Holding down Primary fire, when looking though the Binocs, for three seconds "targets" a building, or patch of ground. (units under cross hairs are highlighted so there is no confusion) After a unit, or ground, is targeted, Grenadiers and artillery can then "lock onto" the target, ensuring they hit it every time.

    Silent: Kill messages are not displayed. Weapons make significantly less noise. Running/walking makes no noise. Muzzle flash dulled significantly.

    Bastard: Can “finish off” wounded enemies so that an engy can not revive them. These “finished” foes would loose the icon indicating they can be revived. Walking over dead infantry (friend or foe) gathers ammunition. Ammo can be given to other players by walking up to them and hitting Use.

    Experienced: Can now spot 8 targets through Binocs. Enemy mines (both types) get little icons above them denoting them as mines. This applys to squad mates as well as long as scout is within auroa.

    EDIT: Removed Broken Arrow skill
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  2. -=]Kane[=-

    -=]Kane[=- Member

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    Is this really necessary? All those changes are added to the current learning curve, what means new players will get confused even more, ... range of squad powers get increased when in range of squadleader, sounds buggy aswell


    Why is the shotgun then added to the scout/scout only if he cant use it for what its designed for, close combat, which happens most likly during sabbing (an enemy base), I dont think its neccesary to take the shotgun away from the scout, if the binoc must be out for sabotaging

    Sounds OP, imagine a scoutrush in the beginning of an open map which aims for all refs and raxes and leaves the enemy team behind with maybe 1 forward rax and 1 ref next to that ...

    It locks onto targets, like in you dont have to aim for it anymore?
    Um, sound even more OP, get arty=> lone wolf rush :headshot: the enemy cv as scout =>target cv => win in seconds or stop the enemy commander from commanding for minutes, because he has to drive constantly w/o beeing able to repair in the incoming arty spam?!
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  3. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    As long as I can shoot people with it :)
     
  4. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    I'm going to say this again. We need multiple working classes and concepts.

    Without working classes, everything is just speculation.

    Without multiple concepts, we have unassailable disagreements over the primary(what the main focus of the class is) and secondary (In what way is it going to do it) aspects while leaving the tertiary (specific weapons/tools) to be swapped and discounted while leaving people unsatisfied.
     
  5. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    Ofcourse, and this can be tried in testing. But we need an initial concept from which to work. Skills, weapons, abilities, etc can all be tweaked and tested but it has to start somewhere.

    Who said we were taking away the shotgun?

    EDIT: Changed Lunge in martial arts skill to a long, forward jump.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  6. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    Thats my my biggest problem. There are some ideas of the fundamental foundation that are just incompatible with each other. The only way to explore different ideas is to have working comparisons to each other.

    Having multiple different premises to choose from will allow better testing and better feedback. With only 1 model that would require extensive contortion to satisfy the different view points, we get a limited scope of testing.

    This is why I think the scout needs a full version dedicated to its self. I think it needs to have a significant amount of tester and developer resources directed towards it.
     
  7. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    I believe Mashav's argument is that you need a base 'concept' for a class or it will not turn out well.

    You have attempted to create a class without assigning a role to it, instead throwing together vague ideas you feel are good. Indeed the class needs to start somewhere, but it starts at somewhere fundamentally more basic.

    What is the role of the scout?
    Recon(finding out things about the enemy):
    Advance Offense:
    Anti-building?
    Anti-infantry?
    Anti-vehicle?
    Support:
    Melee Combat:

    You have argued that the purpose of the scout is to encourage teamwork, but that is far from its current role. In addition, this role already exists because of the engineer and to a lesser extend the grenadier. Many of your abilities provide awkward support, but do not actively encourage teamwork, in net. The best test of determining if someone is promoting teamwork is two things.
    1: Is the class helping in an important way that no other can.
    2: If not, is he helping what others are doing more than someone else playing that class aswell.

    On a side note, you have convinced me to do a writeup on this in gameplay. I hope you will respond to it.
     
  8. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the different base concepts will handle differently and appeal to different people. By only having one, any contradictory proposals either destroy the established premise of the class, or are cast aside. If the contradictory proposals never make it to testing, we'll never know how they actually would have handled.
     
  9. [lodw]keef

    [lodw]keef Hobbit

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    If you stop looking at it as a scout change and just think about it as reading a new class this looks pretty promising from what im reading. I'm for an all go.
     
  10. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Admittedly, I had realized that the moment after I posted when I saw your second one. Realistically, all this is doing is throwing out concepts until 2.25 comes out and they can all be tested (effectively) whenever we want.
     
  11. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    No, we can't. The scripts only go so far. Skills, innate abilitys, health, tools, weapons with special effects: These require coder support.
     
  12. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    I was just going over the available scripts, you are completely correct. I stand by that this should be dealt with after 2.25 comes out though. Realistically it is unlikely a coder would do anything until then anyway.

    That said, I still believe that there is some worth in seeing what people respond well to, even if we can only use text and describe it at this time.
     
  13. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    @topic: appart from the mines id be basically ok with this.

    but to be honest - id rather see engi merge with scout and then split into medic and some spec ops guy - maybe use sergeant as name, its not uncommon in other games and less of a trap for kiddies.
    scout and engineer both have subclasses and therefore not clearly defined rolls. its a bit obscured because engineer is easier to play efficient, and one subclass of the scout got nerfed to fubarness, but they both are actually 2 classes (engi is medic and mechanic, while scout is sniper and spec-ops) while neither grenadier nor rifleman have mulitple rolls (rifleman is anti-inf, grenadier anti-tank - and no, neither weak rpg, mortar nor stickies change that)

    my proposal would be to define clear rolls for both of them, but imo that would need some other changes too.

    first e-building gets the main building/repair mode. it should be around the speed of engies without repair upgrade.
    the problems with building being part of the same class as the medic-class is that engineers currently have to decide if they want to be "mechanic" or "medic". depending on this decision they either have to hang back and build bases or attack with a team to provide medical treatment. engineers that aint at the frontlines have no need to have revive or healing upgrade, they also dont provide ammoz.
    but people want to fight. they dont like to build up bases, so often you have situations where noone cares about building a barracks because they want to fight and therefore are rifleman or grens. i have to say, i prefer killing guys over building too, but i see the need and even ebuild as all other classes. removing the burdon to build from one class would only add to class diversity and teamwork imo.
    another point is the best strategy on the first spawn is to go engineer with speed upgrade. a squad of engineers can build any building fast enough even without repair upgrade and you can build up rax quite fast. once you have built it you can switch classes anyway. if you are wise you also leave an ammo box outside and have a pretty decent foothold already. (ofc one rifleman in a full squad might be helpful no doubt, i just generalize)

    then you let all classes choose between pistol 1 and 2. also any class should be able to trade their primary anti infantry weapon against SMGs or the shotty (that would mean the rifles for the rifleman or the mortar for the grenadier)

    next thing would be you hand out skills like it was before (the current system is just unimaginative, so each 10 points one skill). grens would need a bit more ammo then ofc, but hey thats minor. ebuilding gives building/repair points now.

    finally you remove mass targets (this is more of a general wish - the rest would work without it too)

    Medic
    • Weapons: Pistol 1/2; Shotty/SMG 1/2; flashbangs (work against turrets)
    • Initiate: Medic-tool
      • revives for 100% energy
      • heals teammates (like engi tool)
      • deploys destructable healthcrate for 100% energy
    • Skill: Revive Upgrade - revives only use 50% tool power
    • Skill: Healing Upgrade - stays the same
    • Skill: Improved Batteries: increases tool reload power by 10-20%
    • Skill: Hide (only visual)
    • Skill: Ambulance - the vehicle you drive heals units in and around it.
    • Squadleader Aura: Healing aura (stacks with Ambulance and the health regeneration skill)
    • Squadskill 1: Squad Revive
    • Squadskill 2: Squad Heal

    Sergeant (i really would prefer a less spec-ops or spy like class)
    • Weapons: Pistol 1/2; Shotty/SMG 1/2; engi-grenades (concussion?)
    • Initiate: OmniTool
      • when activated acts as a camera and radar with increased range, must be held to do this (use activates and deactivates, switching weapons deactivates, when leaving a vehicle it starts deactivated - drains energy)
      • can sabotage buildings* and walls ** (drains energy- 1/3rd per sabotage)
      • refills ammoz. (should be costly without the corresponding skill)
      • deploys a limited amount of walls (5 for 20% energy each?) that can be removed remotely (all at once)
      • deploys destructable ammo crate for 100% energy
    • Skill: improved sensor (+50% omni-tool detection range, drains less power)
    • Skill: countermeasures ***
    • Skill: ammunition upgrade (refill costs less)
    • Skill: doubles sabotage effectivity (66%)
    • Squadleader Aura: Stamina Regeneration
    • Squadskill 1: Squadhide (like now)
    • Squadskill 2: Refresh Ammoz (gives full Ammoz)

    yes i know huge changes - but i somehow cant only change parts of the game :rolleyes:
    feel free to steal and or modify ideas from me, i would be honoured - all numbers are only suggestions and prolly need modifications :D

    oh and you might have noticed that my changes would remove field repairs for tanks. this eventually could solve the problem with overpowered tanks even without changeing the RPG at all, tho im still for a little dmg upgrade ;)
    a 5th more or less dedicated driver class could be a posibility, seeing that we will eventually get VTOLs, maybe these guys could get a way to repair their tanks/planes - if that is really needed. i doubt it. i can live with repair pads only (actually i do that most of the time as i drive mainly as gren)





    *Sabotage gets cumulative. Each time you sab a building you reduce its current (!) health by 33%. The effects stay the same with two changes - sabbing the radar also shows the current research. Refinaries reduce their output to 66% and you get half of it (so both teams get 1/3rd out of that ref)
    ** Walls take longer to sabotage but die instantly.
    *** While scanning an area the omni tool now also hides the player and his squadmates in aura range from any electronic surveilance. When in a vehicle the vehicle is always hidden.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  14. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    I really really like the flaregun idea, the 5 target tagging and the "bastard" skill that prevents reviving.
     
  15. PwnedYoAss

    PwnedYoAss Member

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    Megel, I read that post and laughed, then I gathered my thoughts and started posting this. Megel, you do realize this sounds like you've turned the Scout into a one man army right? It all just sounds overpowered and unnecessary. I like the idea of taking the camera away from Engineers and giving it the Scout, no matter how much that makes me cringe, but everything else just sounds ridiculous. Broken Arrow? Bastard? Grabbing ammo from enemies? Scouts should not be Solid Snake, and I agree with Mashav's point, you didn't seem to base this off of any real concept. Anti-infantry? Building? Vehicle? Air? I'm not sure man, but you may have to play the game some more or go back to the drawing board. It just sounds ridiculous. But, then again words and action are two different thing, so mind as well test this.
     
  16. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    What pwned said. And refer to this post:

    http://www.forums.empiresmod.com/showpost.php?p=248447&postcount=16
    and this one afterward:

    http://www.forums.empiresmod.com/showpost.php?p=248460&postcount=18

    for my personal opinion.

    But honestly...I really disagree with so many of these ideas, and I'd happily make another wall of test about it, outlining why I disagree with every single one, the justification and even possibly solutions to this, but I see little point.

    Sorry Megel...just not digging it.
    And if you notice that the main people opposing this are people who play very regularly and know how to use the scout, what his shortfalls are and his overpowered areas, as well as how to use him in a squad.

    @Mashav, do you wanna add me on steam @ trickster9012. We could go for a full idea and post it up for feedback in another thread and see what we get for it.

    Also Megel one thing, remember that a long jump would make so many maps exploitable, as they've been mapped according to how stuff is now. Very few maps are parachute friendly as it is. This would be even worse. But the jump sounds a lot like the Neotokyo Recon jumps, in which their maps are adapted for that. I mean, I'd love a long jump in some ways, but it isn't practical in any way shape or form sadly.
     
  17. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i like how some things look quite promicing in megels post, but other things seem horribly OP and unbalanceable


    how do you balance a full scout rush using the artillery strike skills to utterly decimate anything in there path?
     
  18. DrummerX

    DrummerX Empires Tyrant

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    I love the changes and have no complaints about any of the characteristics mentioned in the first post.

    Love the fact that the "Sniper" rifle will be removed. Even though i will admit i've spent several hours hidden under a tree picking off people leaving base.

    I'm assuming that you will be taking the ability of sabotage away which will help with keeping a base longer than 30 sec. Do suggest never bringing back the sabo skill for any class to allow them to destroy buildings rather than just negating certain effects of a building
     
  19. Omneh

    Omneh Member

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    I honestly love this megel, it seems almost perfect.

    I would however suggest increasing the scout's base speed slightly, and foregoing the 75% health part, instead giving him less resistance to bullets and explosives than the other classes. Just for the sake of continuity with the other classes, as they have all 100 health, but varying resistances.

    Oh, and the broken arrow marker needs to be vulnerable to bullets.

    Otherwise, its great. We need to be able to kill people with the flaregun though :p
     
  20. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    To those who are very against this latest proposal, please come up with your own scout plan and psit it here. This is for discussion after all.

    Just keep mind:
    No scout rifle
    No building sab
    scout should stick with squad
     
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