Heavy tanks

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by DonMegel, Aug 24, 2009.

  1. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    Since the other thread was closed before all of the issues within were resolved I thought it prudent to make a new thread.

    Unless we moved empires tank combat to a more dynamic and realistic system a fixed turret will not work very well. My eyes were bigger than my stomach.

    BAck to the heavy tanks. My model for the heavy tank does not look good with a huge rack of missles. It should be like the Tiger tank with really thick armor and a powerful gun. Let that make up for the lack of a second gun.
     
  2. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    Umm, ok, I like the idea, and I don't.

    Firstly, I think one big cannon to make up for 2 smaller ones could be difficult to balance, but it's definitely within reach and could be real interesting to try.

    Secondly, which heavy are you referring to? The current one, or this one, which some people told me you wanted to be the replacement:
    http://donmegel.com/wp-content/gallery/gallery/the-beast.jpg

    Thirdly: I do like the Cannon for BE, Missiles for NF split though, I think it characterises the sides quite well. Is there no way of putting an ML rack in and making it look half decent?
     
  3. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    What does it actually accomplish?

    If you make the BE heavy doubly armed and less armored, if you balance the two perfectly so that they both beat each other equally in most fights with a standard set of weapons, you still have huge problems.

    1. The NF heavy is using half the heat of the BE heavy.

    2. The NF heavy is going to react very strangely to armor weights, because it's either going to need a lot of slots, or a huge weight capacity, either way it's going to neccesitate a particular armor choice, and we have just recently got away from that.

    3. The NF heavy is going to be unbalanced against everything other than the BE heavy. It's going to be ridiculously hard to kill with MLs, mines, and RPGs, it is probably going to make mince meat of mediums.

    4. It's still exactly the same as the BE heavy, except you shoot the cannon less often, but it plays exactly the same, it's just obscenely unbalanced, unlike a simple clone of the BE heavy would be.
     
  4. MOOtant

    MOOtant Member

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    It's better not to mix models with weapon scripts as long as it makes sense.
     
  5. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    weren't we talking about a limited turning range turret in stead of a fixed tank turret?

    anyway, sad thing to see something original go : / i was looking forward to using the new heavy tank :p
     
  6. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    Yes, but no one seemed to get it either way.

    There are good reasons NOT to do just about anything suggested.

    Yes, I was going to use the NF Beast for the new Heavy tank model. It was designed to be an Ultra heavy as part of a commander power's system but there is a more pressing need for a new NF Heavy model.

    It is true that more armor on the NF heavy would make it harder to kill. That is the idea. It is a heavy tank. It is true that it will eat med tanks. It is a heavy tank.

    If the more powerful gun and more armor seem a bit too much, just scale them back. Its called balance. If we add 50 plates of armor then that might be a tad too much. I am thinking a few different configs will have to be tried. You could also make it slower to compensate, make it almost like a mobile fortress/pillbox.

    I will have to model a new Heavy tank all together if we are going with the silly missile boat thing. I couldn't stomach the Beast as little more than a BM- 13
     
  7. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    would it ever be concidered to just make the nf heavy like extra more expencive? to compencate its kick-assedness
     
  8. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    That could be a bellencing factor as well, but not too much or else the BE could kill the NF before they saved the money.
     
  9. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    the more expensive a single tank is the more problematic are unskilled tank drivers
     
  10. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    Perhaps allow a com to lock a heavy tank
     
  11. Metal Smith

    Metal Smith Member

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    If we want 2 separate factions to have 2 separate and unique tanks with each having their own stuff, but be balanced, then the answer is obvious.

    We need 2 separate research tree's with unique weapons and armors.

    I know I go suggesting tons of out there shit, but this one really is something I've been wanting for a long time.

    Now that we are making 2 unique sets of tanks for 2 unique teams, I think it would be prudent to at least think of the possibility that have 2 unique research trees would better suite the game. Any FPS you play will have a different research path for each faction. I think it would work well, and allow us to mold the game to the world it is in, rather than molding the world to what is available in the game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2009
  12. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    and the discussion starts to get offtopic
     
  13. Metal Smith

    Metal Smith Member

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    how do you balance 2 teams with 2 unique sets of tanks with only one set of weapons for both teams?

    You make weapons for both teams in the tree's? so you have a huge research tree that has 50% of it at least will never be used because it is designed for a different team's tank?

    I think this is very relevant to the discussion.
     
  14. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Again I ask what does this accomplish?

    You're pointing out all these problems and balance issues and not considering that this is probably more trouble than it's worth.

    How is a tank with one big gun much different from a tank with two slightly smaller guns? It's still a big tank that you shoot a gun on, it's not going to play differently, it's just going to cause a shitload of balance issues.
     
  15. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    When I said the same on IRC i was called a idiot with flawed logic.
    The tendency in this community to justify stuff with "because I want it" gets really anoying sometimes.
     
  16. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Well in this instance I have to say you seem pretty logical to me.

    It is almost certainly going to be easier to mirror the sides, more or less, and then introduce more variety within each side.

    Missiles for example, make them something other than just another form of cannon, make them a support weapon or a special ability weapon, then all tanks with instantly gain two possible roles and a new aspect of combat, and becase both teams are symmetrical, they will not cause balance problems, you only have to worry about balance against other weapons, not against other teams.

    Symmetrical doesn't mean bad just as asymmetrical doesn't mean good, warzone 2100 is a lot of people's favourite old RTS game, but it has no sides, it's perfectly symmetrical, everyone uses the same tanks, they just have a huge number of possible tanks for you to make and the research tree takes several hours to reach the end of even with five research facilities, so it doesn't get boring. There is a huge amount of depth in all sides because they're all using all possible content.

    CnC 3 is asymmetrical and it is full of balance problems and isn't much fun in any case with all the stupid god powers and crap thrown in.

    Battlefield has symmetrical sides in all but visuals, and it's a damn popular FPS, I don't see why empires has to or would benefit from being different just for the sake of it.
     
  17. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    I personaly think both factions should have equal access to missiles and
    canons because it needs less (or a different type) of skill to use canons.
    The major problem isnt really the imbalance of the stats of the weapons
    its the imbalance of the skill needed to use it with the same efficiency.
    The comm basically forces everyone to use the same gun. Its like everyone
    has to choose smg1 and rifle1 because the commander forces them to do it
    no matter if you are skilled with it or not.
     
  18. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Well I think we should have more weapons made available certainly, restricting people to a certain set of weapons makes little sense, just make a lot of them available and everyone will pick a different set, just as they do with classes.
     
  19. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Drag's research tree had that but commanders seem to be afraid that
    the lack of controll over what the team uses will make them lose the game...
     
  20. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    Ok I think this is where I chime in. I don't know what you mean by one massive cannon compared to BE Heavys 2 massive cannons, I hope you don't mean a 4 slot cannon beause that would be ridiculous atm.

    What would be awesome is if it had a large missile rack, a large cannon and maybe 2x 2slot MGs. That way, you get a bit of variety, both heavies use a bit of heat, you can keep both armor weights the same for both factions and damage output will be about the same.

    Plus it helps with Tricksters and mine script balancing efforts.
     

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