Commanding: an analysis of why is it easy

Discussion in 'Game Play' started by spellman23, Jul 17, 2009.

  1. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

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    This is purely an analytical look at commanding in Empires.

    I will be comparing it with commanding in Natural Selection to show the differences and why people feel commanding in NS is sometimes quite difficult while in Empires many claim it's too easy. At the end will be some suggestions.


    The Basic Function of the Comm
    The commander's role is to take care of the majority of the RTS elements in the game. They primarily give a strategic focus and then have the other players execute whatever tactics are necessary. They also give support by researching new techs as appropriate, dropping buildings, and managing the team's resources. However, they are almost purely strategic in nature having little to no direct influence on the combat. Thus, it is up to the players on the ground to employ tactics such as flanking or proper aim to execute the strategic goals set by the commander.

    Commander's Abilities
    In Empires the main powers of the comm are
    • Giving Orders
    • Dropping Buildings
    • Research
    They also have some ability to control vehicle creation.

    In Natural Selection a commander's powers are
    • Giving Orders
    • Dropping Buildings
    • Research
    • Dropping equipment
    • Health and Ammo
    • Scanner sweeps and Emergency Beacon
    The Natural Selection commander has greater influence on the players. Dropping ammo and meds into the battlefield is the major enhancement. This adds a necessary awareness and quick timing for the commander to pay attention and supply the players with items as they need them. Some feel this is annoying and pointless and have suggested ways to get rid of this mechanic. All agree that it takes extra concentration and time to execute this well right after or even during each engagement.


    Map and Gameplay Influence
    Perhaps the most important difference is the scope of the games. In Natural Selection building placement plays a key role. Many times there is an optimal placement of buildings, but other times there is a risk reward due to the high density of elements and close timing of combat. Place a building closer to the fight, like a Phase Gate, and players get into the fray quicker and apply more pressure. However, this makes it more susceptible to enemy attacks. Plus, paying attention to the environment and the spacing of the room or location of a vent strongly influence proper placement. Due to the tighter quarters and more furious combat slight variations can strongly impact the game.

    In Empires, there is little to no difference in placement. Turret placement is crucial so that they can have clean nlines of sight, and placing your forward barracks in the middle of a field is idiotic. However, there isn't as much fine tuning or the ideal placement is readily known. The chokepoints are obvious on all the maps. The areas are extremely wide to accommodate the large tanks and the large building hitboxes. Some variations are required, especially proper rotation of the VF and barracks in tighter regions, but overall there is little choice in building positions. You just plop them down and make sure nothing is blocked.

    Furthermore, NS maps are more of a net providing multiple paths to every point. This means the fronts can be very free flowing and there is actual strategic choice involved in pushing one side of the map versus another. It also provides great ways to isolate engagements while still creating a cohesive territory. Plus, it provides wonderful opportunities for ninja squads to try and get behind enemy lines, although organized teams will foil this easily.


    The Key Difference
    It all boils down to two items. One, the complexity of the role. Some criticize NS for keeping the comm too busy. In both new comms have to suddenly juggle seemingly individually simple roles.

    The second is the impact of the commander. In NS, it is often much more rewarding since you have a greater influence on the battlefield. You have more tools at your disposal to influence the tactics. Fine tuned building placement, proper turret locations, scanner sweeps, ammos and meds are all factors that a good comm will take care of in NS. In Empires, it really can turn into the grind of plop the building, make sure research is going, and give everyone attack orders. This aloof nature in Empires is what makes it feel like commanding is simply boring, unfulfilling, and why many believe the commander is actually just the servant of the team instead of what the true job of the commander is: giving strategic direction and leading the team.



    What to Do
    Add ways for the commander to have a greater impact. Adding commander "spells" is a simple way to do this. However, these should never to direct damage. They should instead be supporting abilities. Scanner Sweeps or temporary AoE boosts would be the correct solution. The ability to drop bombs or a giant laser, incorrect since no one likes to die from the finger in the sky.

    Also, don't make them on a player-per-player basis since this turns it into a furious micro game. Dropping items into the field is fine since if you have imperfect aim the players can simply run over them themselves. Perhaps letting the comm drop ammo or health crates (for a prices) would be a good system, although it would severely decrease the importance of the field Engineer.

    Improving the maps to create more strategic choice would also help. Simply having a bunch of simple chokepoints and 2 major paths through the map isn't enough. In some ways Streets of Fire, for all its painful design (like the maze of infantry corridors), does this very well providing ways to flank your enemy while maintaining a wholistic sense of battle lines. Unlike the extremely open Duststorm or the static Canyon.

    And, as with all things in Empires, the UI really could use some improvement....
     
  2. [D3]Leroy Jenkins

    [D3]Leroy Jenkins Member

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    Its hard enough to find commanders these days many times its only 1 or 2 people even volunteering. Occasionally you even have a team without com i won't make it any harder then it is.

    But i do agree making it a bit more strategic then "Alpha north Bravo south" Would be nice.
     
  3. o_O

    o_O Member

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    In some situations yes, but you can use that comm vehicle to great effect if you are careful. Boomtank is THE anti infantry defensive weapon, and can flip tanks if you hit them with sufficient enthusiasm. Its a useable offensive weapon as well, as long as you are reeeaaaaallll careful, have backup, and don't mind the occasional getting walled in and dying.

    Anyway, everything else you said is basically true. One thing people overlook however, is the ability to command your hero units. Many of the people on the forums and most people with clan tags are just plain hero units. They can cast spells like "sneak behind enemy lines and build a rax" or "push the NF comm into the water with a jeep" or "jeep around the map killing/building refs". If you see an openeing, call out a skilled player and ask them to zoom a jeep past. If you think a big tank rush can take out a base, call up some vets by name, ask them gather some tanks in base, and it may well happen. Just saying "EVERYONE TANKRUSH SOUTH" often doesn't work because each player tends to hear "EVERYONE ELSE TANK RUSH SOUTH".

    New players as well are occasionaly capable of superhuman feats of teamwork, if you talk to each of them individually and explain things more carefully.

    Edit: Only tell them to do badass things though. Tell them to do something boring and they will probly tell you to shove it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  4. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    I do agree that the commander should have some specific support abilities that they can deploy.

    But let me put it this way: if you're bored while commanding (except on money), then you're not doing it right. When I'm commanding, I make sure I'm always doing something. Target spamming is the most tedious, but I build backup bases, block common ninja rax locations, boomtank to run over infantry, build backup defense, etc. etc. (just to name a few more non-traditional items). Hell, I'll jump out and help heal tanks/infantry. If theres one thing I've learned from the best comms in Empires it is that a busy commander wins more often than not.

    Its these reasons that commanding is difficult. You can forgo some of these, but your team will suffer if you're playing against a comm that does them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  5. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

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    All very solid comments. I agree it's not a matter of "staying busy". However, the seemingly simple and dull job of commanding is from the fact that the basic roles the commander is in charge of are too basic.

    While the clever commander will do things like utilize the boom tank and correctly use their spare res to keep everything safe, people see little purpose to the commander and feel to disjointed form the action. In NS people don't want to comm because you're the hinge that everyone relies on. I often don't comm in NS because I just want to relax and shoot some stuff. In Empires it seems to be also from people's lack of interest combined with the overwhelming tech choices.


    So, we need to remove the tedious stuff (target spam) and add some things that make the commander's role more supportive. This will also give a way for commanders to get people to listen to them because they can use subtle rewards for people who execute their strategy instead of running around in a jeep.


    EDIT: another thought. The commanding role should be apparent from a basic infantry's point of view. This will make the barrier of becoming a commander smaller. What I mean is feedback to the players on what the comm is doing, such as showing what techs are being researched and such. Making the commander too complex and a whole other game makes it more difficult to train new comms.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  6. Bass

    Bass Member

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    Commanding is easy if your team isn't full of scouts.
     
  7. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    You spectacularly failed to make a quantitative analysis.

    In NS and empires, the commanders drop a comparable amount of buildings in comparable situations, so the two can be said to be equivalent, both are relatively minor roles, so let's say two points apiece. Empires 2: NS: 2

    In NS, the commander has to perform two, three-step researches and maybe two additional one-off researches, no researches are invalid, one point. In empires, there's a whole damn tree, most of which doesn't work. Empires is like five times more complex in research terms at least, so it's currently Empires 7 NS: 3

    In NS, the commander has absolute control over the economy, and there is no reason to save money because there is nothing expensive to save for, drop HMGs and jetpacks for everyone whenever you have the cash. Economy 1 point for NS. Empires has many things to buy and you need to constantly interfere with player tank purchasing to get the money, often some time in advance because otherwise people will spend it when it's halfway to what you wanted to spend on a research, you also sometimes need to buy specific tanks for people, so let's say a conservative two points for empires on this. Empires: 9 NS: 4

    Empires requires constant target dropping, usually in two places at once, 2 points for targets. NS doesn't have targets but it does have health and ammo drops, however you just spam these every now and then near your single group of marines (you don't branch out in NS) using a hotkey, so it's easier. 1 point for NS. Empires: 11 NS: 5

    Giving orders is negligible in both games, it has little impact on the performance of a competent team because they know where to go and they know what to do when they get there. No points to either. Also no points for scanner sweeps and emergency beacons in NS because they are painfully simple to use. Drop pings in hive locations when you have siege towers there. Drop emergency beacons when you are about to lose and want everyone to be there to see it.

    Empires also has the unique property of putting the commander in direct charge of the object which determines victory, the command vehicle. In NS the commander cannot and does not have to protect his command chair. In empires the commander can and often has to protect his CV from ninjas as the occasional tank rush. This is difficult to do when you're commanding so 2 points to Empires. Empires: 13 NS: 5

    NS may have more different things for the commander to do, but the complexity of those things is much less than the complexity of the empires tasks. Empires commanding is the more difficult task.

    Giving the commander more things to do which impact the state of play directly is only going to exacerbate the problem. The commander needs to be curtailed and if possible, removed. Not made more important and difficult to play correctly than he already is.
     
  8. Varbles

    Varbles Simply Maptastic. Staff Member

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    Commanding is a bitch when you have 20-30 people because the chat is spammed with "so-and-so 1 target destroyed 9000 remaining". Also when in commander view you cant scroll through the chat record which makes it pretty hard to communicate with a large portion of your team.

    Getting rid of targets would be nice but I'd settle for removing the target status spam.
     
  9. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Buy a mic, the people that want to communicate with you with out a mic isn't important anyways.

    The best for commanding would first to get the new research scripts out ASAP and add infantry research and doctrines. Remove wallhax so we don't have that tedious spam to do. Add more orders for the commander and squad leaders, also a dual order system. Fix the UI and moving around the map and similiar problems. Commander vehcile controll.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2009
  10. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    Oh lol....you haven't palyed with many commanders then. Many will have more roadkills than their entire team. Although that seems to be a trait of EPIC/BSID commanders.
     
  11. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    And the result is often, that you see the defeat screen and your commander trapped somewhere.
     
  12. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

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    It wasn't meant to be. It is rarely useful to try and assign arbitrary points.

    In regard to your system, the majority of the extra points for Empires are excessive complexities for the Empires commander and show a lack of understanding of NS commanders. I mostly made my analysis avoiding higher level play, which I'm more experience in NS than in Empires. However, there's a few easy weak points in your system.

    For one, you seem to believe the NS commander is only responsible for spamming equipment. I find this very surprising, but an easy trap to fall in to. Due to the faster paced gameplay, the difference between a few minutes of research can mean the game. Let's take for example the arrival of Fades. Without shotguns, the Marines will probably die. Even with shotguns, they will probably still die to an experienced Fade without at least Armor1 or Weapons1 (or both!). The only way of really apply pressure to Fades though comes from Weapons2 and Armor1 at which point the basic lmg weapons start to become a real threat and thus less drain to keep re-dropping shotguns. However, to get that kind of research going in time (Fades should appear around the 5 minute mark), you may have to sacrifice things like Phase Gate tech or put off Advanced Armory research.

    Also, your analysis of protecting the victory condition shows that you have never seen a comm in NS jump out and splatter 2 Skulks trying to ninja Marine Start.

    Your analysis of absolute control over the economy in NS is correct and one of the many reasons why the commander in NS actually feels important and useful, although it does add a decent amount of stress to properly spend those resources.

    I would argue that the target spam in Empires is pointless tedious work, the tech tree is finally becoming balanced but is still a bit overwhelming complex (the UI doesn't help). As far as keeping track of players, the standard 6v6 strat involves 2 squads of Marines fanning out across the map.



    As far as proper utilization of the boomtank.... meh. Running over the occasional ninja and helping drop initial refs. Once real tanks start rolling, you hide just like the NS comm and watch for ninjas.


    Of course, I concede I haven't done higher level Empires playing and have done much more theory work with the NS system. And both commanders have a lot on their plate if they're being played properly (i.e. not being a dispenser). However, I feel that the Empires commander could use some streamlining and a stronger presence on the battlefield, and am using the NS commander as an example that you could draw ideas from. It's not that one is better than the other, it's that the NS commander feels more important and so it creates incentive to actually lead. Granted, the cost is that you are the hinge the entire team has to rely upon.


    Maybe we want to keep the Empires comm aloof and disjointed. I feel though that leaving it in that role defeats the purpose of the commander and gives even more credence to removal and replace with a bot or distributed command system.
     
  13. Varbles

    Varbles Simply Maptastic. Staff Member

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    On the public servers usually only 20 or 30% of the team have mics, and just because they have a mic doesn't mean they're any good. I end up muting a lot of people anyways because of their damned HLSS/DJ spamming.

    If the comm doesn't read text at all I will vote him out or ragequit and watch the team lose from spec.
     
  14. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    I think what Chris0132 is trying to say is that there are less separate actions in commanding Empires, but you need to do more of them. Empire's commanders usually command more people than NS commanders. The max server size in NS is 32 (16 per side), while it is 64 in Empires (32 per side). Its not uncommon to command more than 16 people in Empires, which is more than the maximum in NS. That means that more needed actions (i.e. targets, building placements, orders) are crammed into the same amount of time. That is what makes Empire's harder to command, especially for newbs.

    Also, I think this comparison between NS and Empires is a little silly because both are pretty difficult to command. I believe this has been one of the big issues discussed in NS also. Just because one is easier than the other doesn't mean that both are not hard to do.
     
  15. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

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    A very good point. It's not a comparison of one being better since in NS people complain and whine about commanding being too hard AND too easy at the same time as well.

    They are both hard positions to hold. I simply feel that in Empires the leading trend seems to be that it's 1) tedious and 2) doesn't have enough impact in gameplay. While it's easy to simply say that they're obviously not using everything available to the commander all the time and thus should learn2play, I think Empires could use some removal of the tedious and some more of the interaction.
     
  16. MiamiHeat87

    MiamiHeat87 Member

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    A+ just for making use of bullet points, bold, lists, and paragraph titles. I love it!
     
  17. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Remind me to submit all my suggestions as powerpoint presentations from now on.
     
  18. [D3]Leroy Jenkins

    [D3]Leroy Jenkins Member

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    And sending the laminated proposals to all of the people that post and renting a conference room, and giving a speech during primetime and creating a logo for you proposal and hiring a secretary to take calls to deal with you suggestion and starting a campaign on you suggestion and competing in a national election.


    Ok i think i have sufficiently "Beat that horse to death" and gone enough off topic enough.
     
  19. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    I usually kick commanders from the server for griefing if they dont constantly read chat.
     
  20. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    coming from starcraft, one of the biggest problems is that commanding has very little micro (and will have absolutely none if everyone gets their way and targetspam is removed).

    the direct effect of this is that commanders have basically nothing they can do to affect outcomes on a tactical level. exa. 2 squads meet at dam, the only thing a commander can do to help his squad is target spam. this leads to boring gameplay (for the comm)... you get to just sit and watch as your little infantry succeed/fail and you have to adjust your strategic goals as the battle unfolds.

    nobody is denying that the commander has a lot of strategic power, especially if he is charismatic and/or frightening. however, i see a constant theme throughout all of these discussions and that is that commanding is either boring, easy, or both because there's practically no micromangement possible as an actual commander.

    boomtanking != commanding; it's just running over people with a really hard to kill tank, not that i'm opposed to it - i just think it's a lame way of letting the comm affect the outcome of a battle, especially since it's almost impossible as soon as tanks are out (especially ones with non-shit engines). if this is the way we want to make commanding interesting, we may as well make CV weapons researchable/upgradable. (and i'm not really in favor of this, just pointing out the conclusion of that line of thought)
     

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