Everyone seems to agree that the grenadier is too weak against vehicles, especially in the late game. They're too dependent on RPG upgrade, which often isn't researched (it isn't worth as much as a good tank, basically), and even with that they're not so great -- Empires tank combat depends heavily on being able to chase, dodge, and line up good shots, none of which grenadiers can do effectively. Grenadiers are also rather easy for tanks to kill. I am not sure whether this is something that should be addressed or not; I think it is partially a map issue (too many flat open areas with no cover), and partially a comm-targets issue, since comms can negate cover. I don't think grens should be able to just run up to enemy tanks in the open and exchange hits with them, obviously. This is also partially a tank-mobility issue like I mentioned above; even if a gren finds a perfect spot to snipe at tanks from, the tanks can just drive past or drive away, and once they're out of view there's very little the gren can do about it. So let's try and consolidate all the various suggestions people have had for improving this situation, and discuss which ones are best. 1. Scale grenadier damage against tank improvements, somewhat. Part of the problem in terms of their damage is that a grenadier capable of threatening a late-game tank would completely rape early-game tanks; a grenadier effective against early-game paper tanks is totally ineffective against everything else. Gren upgrade is meant to fix this, but I've already listed the problems with it; the problem is that armor is meant to be matched by weapons upgrades for tanks, which grens don't really keep up with. So, how about scaling grenadier damage somewhat based on the enemy armor and tank size? You don't want to totally negate armor (extra/better armor should still help you against grens; it just shouldn't make you immune to grens.) Something like base damage + armor-scale factor + tank-size-scale factor, where the factors are things intended to reduce but not eliminate the advantages of better tanks/armor. Of course, the armor scales could be done using the new armor resist systems. ...also, NF grens are at a disadvantage in the early game. BE AFVs and mkiis have extra armor to account for their model's disadvantages against the LT. But NF grens don't get any such advantage, so while we're on the subject, NF grens should perhaps do a bit of extra damage to BE AFV/mkiis (only -- they don't need the bonus against meds, APCs, or heavies), to even this out. Not too much, but 3 plates vs 2 does make a difference. 2. Homing RPGs This would be intended to address one of the big disadvantages that grenadiers have against tanks -- they can't chase them down. This isn't precisely about skill -- the problem is that a tank can come out, shoot, then dash behind cover, and even the best grenadier is going to be hard-pressed to guide an RPG at them under those circumstances. Some people have suggested that this be researched. If it is, I suggest that it become available when you unlock tracking systems (the base item for both guided and homing.) That way, comms won't have to divert themselves from tank research to improve grens. That's how MKiis work, and I think it works well there -- giving advantages for the currently-useless 'step' research items makes things flow more smoothly and adds more options to your research order. Obviously, this would be something grens can turn on/off (say, by their alt fire.) You wouldn't always want to use homing. While we're on the subject... 3. Make gren upgrades part of other research At least, partially. Have it so they're granted by the currently-useless intermediary research items. Give gren RPG upgrade for free with Improved Missile Compounds (and mention this in its tooltip! It doesn't even mention that gren upgrade is below it at all right now!) Adv. gren RPG can still be a separate research item below that, so there's still a decision if you really want to focus research on getting the best grens possible. 4. Faster RPGs But that could make them harder to guide, so how about only making them travel faster when the gren releases the mouse button? This will add a bit more of a strategic choice to using the RPG. The problem with this is that many people worry that the RPG might become too effective as an infantry-sniping weapon if it's faster. (Right now, it's pretty easy to dodge unless the enemy is paying no attention at all, in which case you could kill them anyway.) So if this is done, perhaps RPG damage against infantry would have to be reduced to compensate and avoid that... 5. Hotter RPGs If RPGs gave more heat, grenadiers would be more valuable as backup in tank-vs-tank fights, and a large number of grens could quickly immobilize a tank, helping with the ease that tanks have in dodging, running away, or evading grens. Yes, people hate heat weapons, but I'm not talking about making grenadiers fire plasma -- just enough to be a factor. Again, it might be tempting to have this unlocked with research, but I would suggest making it come for 'free' with a base research item -- either improved detonation compounds or superheated material physics. (Or both could increase heat somewhat, and stack with each other.) 6. Bio-RPGs In the same line as the above, adding a bio effect to RPGs after Biological Weaponry has been researched would make sense. This would address one of the gren's main weaknesses -- tanks can too easily run away. 7. Improved guidance Obvious. Make it guide more nimbly, like, well, guided. Again, it might become too good at killing infantry, but a reduction to infantry damage could avoid this. (Yes, yes, it's not realistic... but it doesn't do much damage to structures, either, and we don't really need too many anti-infantry RPG-sniping grens. You have the mortar already. In theory.) This could be attached to an existing research item again, or it could just be buffed innately. 8. Stacking effects No, not that kind of stacking. I've mentioned a lot of improvements -- bio, heat, homing. Some people might want to have to choose between them, but honestly, I think that letting grens get all of their bonuses at once wouldn't be so bad. So you have a bio-heat-homing adv. RPG, so what? You've researched like five different research items scattered over nearly every tech tree to get it; the enemy probably has super-heavies with top armor and weapons. I should make this clear, while I'm on the subject -- to the extent that it's possible, none of these advantages should apply against infantry (homing doesn't lock on them, bio... well, if they survive a hit, they shouldn't be bio-ed, etc.) The purpose of these improvements is to let the gren keep up with larger, better-armored tanks, not to kill infantry. ...so, anyway, I know some of these things have been suggested in other threads, but I thought I'd put them all in one place for comparison, so we can try and work them out into one overall RPG-improvement program rather than a bunch of piecemeal suggestions. What do people think of these? Which ones are good or bad? Anything I left out?
well, gren rpg isnt really reserched because it isnt needed if your team is doing well enough to afford tanks which is most of the time, but i think a simple fix to this problem would be give a little buff to upgraded gren rpg, because if we look at this from a logic standpoint a heavy tank means you have reached the highest tech in tank design which should be able to take its fair share of rpg's because it would have been developed to do so to protect the tank crew inside. so if you make upgraded gren rpgs more effective against late game tanks it would make sense because the technology to take down these new tanks with high armor would have needed to be developed. now they shouldnt be as effective as a tank vs a tank but still deliver some pretty powerful ordinance. the key to making a game make sense is logic within its world
Partially that. But the thing is, ideally the game is supposed to consist of infantry supporting tanks. You are not supposed to have to choose between infantry or tanks... but since researching gren RPG takes time away from researching tanks, it basically forces you to make that choice (and almost everyone picks tanks, obviously, unless they're too broke to afford them or already have all the tank stuff they need.) That's not a choice comms should be forced to make. It's especially bad for losing teams, because it puts them in a position where they can research gren RPG (and lose slowly, but still lose, because now they're even further behind in really important research and won't be able to field competitive tanks even if they grab some refs by a miracle), or their grenadiers -- which they need -- won't be able to fight back. If the grenadier upgrades were incorporated into research items that you get while upgrading your tanks anyway, I think that grenadiers as a whole would work much better, and you'd be much more likely to see them used in more situations.
I've got it. Researching each of the base research trees gives you the respective bonus. Physics-Moar Heat Chemistry-+25damage Mechanicle-Speeds Electrical-Better Guided Bio-...bio
i agree the research needs to be changed on it but i dont think giving it special bonuses would be very good, ie. if you have a bio rpg, you have a super infantry snipe weapon lol. i think upgraded gren rpg should just be a more powerful rpg, the more heat thing kinda goes with that
1. Yeah sort of want. 2. Do want. 3. Yes, if RPG upgrades become new weapons to be selected, such as "Bio RPG" etc. 4. Only selectable, you don't want to scare your grenadiers to suddenly have a faster RPG, when they didn't notice that you researched that. Coupled with the scarce RPG ammo, this could prove very bad in some situations, where Grens miss a tank because the rocket cruising speed has changed. 5 through 8. Do want. Look at #4 about how this could be done.
The speed I think should be a basic change to the way things work now rather than a researched upgrade, partially for that reason. I feel selection could become a bother, though, especially since most grens (let's be honest here) aren't going to notice it was researched and probably wouldn't know to switch even if they did. Much better to make the benefit idiot-proof; having your weapon suddenly gain a bio or heat effect is never going to hurt people. Additionally, stacking these benefits gives grens a higher chance of being able to threaten late-game tanks -- I don't feel that just one of them is going to be enough against a fully-upgraded med or heavy (not unless the heat is made completely absurd or something.) But if upgrades stack, grens will be able to go a bit further. That's why I said that the RPG bio effect shouldn't work on infantry. (That's also another reason why the speed upgrade shouldn't be researched -- and, possibly, why the RPG might need to simply be made weak/ineffective against infantry directly if its speed/tracking are improved.) I know bioRPGs have been suggested before, but I think they're important because they help deal with one of the biggest problems grens have against tanks (after you land your first surprise hit, the enemy tank can usually easily dodge, dash past you, duck behind cover, or just run away.)
