I'm going to preface this topic with the current engine stats. These statistics were generated from the actual client script data from version 2.22 (with a fix for the tank standard engine). These Indecies score each engine on a scale of 0 to 10 where the worse is set at 0 and the best is set at 10. I chose Indecies that would reflect the current major differences in the engines, which are as follows: Cost = total cost to research Time = total time to research Speed = Average Max speed while driving Power = horsepower Resilience = The ability of an engine to resist compromise due to heat or damage. This Index takes multiple concepts into account. Heat = how well the engine manages heat. Standard Engine: Cost 10 Time 10 Speed 0 Power 10 Resilience 0.42 Heat 0 Gas Turbine: Cost 1.2 Time 0 Speed 5.69 Power 6.5 Resilience 0.83 Heat 5.83 3 Phase Electric: Cost 0 Time 2.22 Speed 10 Power 7.5 Resilience 0 Heat 6.67 Fission Reactor: Cost 2.2 Time 1.11 Speed 8.82 Power 0 Resilience 1.25 Heat 0 Bio Diesel: Cost 5.4 Time 5.56 Speed 4.12 Power 3.5 Resilience 10 Heat 3.33 Advanced Coolant: Cost 2.6 Time 0 Speed 2.94 Power 1.5 Resilience 1.67 Heat 10 P.S. If you actually care enough to look at these stats, you would probably benefit from seeing the spreadsheet I created to generate these stats. The chart looks much nicer than these numbers. http://bluesolutions.org/vehicle_engines.xls
Most things need re-balancing in 2.22, although engines have always been off, and need a bit more than a simple re-balancing. We all know that: Bio doesn't stall Coolant has the best cooling 3phase is fastest standard is fastestest/cheapest to get (both by research and by unit) --But fission and turbine have no such affiliation. Fission and turbine aren't even good all-around engines. Implementing useless game mechanics is worse than not implementing them at all, and fission/turbine are nearly useless. Gas Turbine WOULD be a good all-around engine if 3phase didn't over-shadow it in every category it excelled in. Fission has no redeeming values. This problem can't be fixed IMO by just goofing with the numbers, because Turbine and Fission aren't even slated as being good at anything. I believe the objectification/personality of each engine needs to be re-evaluated so that every engine fills a niche. Being 'the engine closest to other important research' isn't good enough. Then of course after the engines get a personality make-over, the stats should be made to match that new system.
What does power actually do? I have yet to be able to determine this in game, but it surely does something, right? Gas turbine being a solid above average engine seems reasonable to accomplish. Assuming your numbers are correct and the ones on the website are wrong (entirely reasonable) then gas turbine's old shtick of having the second highest speed and horsepower is dead. Realistically though, there are enough categories that one engine should dominate each while one remains a solid average choice. That isn't really the case now, there are some good choices and some poor ones.
Yeah. It should theoretically affect acceleration and exerted force, although I've herd that it might not. Independent studies have speculated that it only affects the angle of incline a vehicle can overcome. Although, that "study" was done before the orange box switch. Maybe someone who knows the code could chime in on this one. They all actually have relatively similar horsepower right now, I mostly included it because fission and gas turbine used to be big hitters in that category. The numbers disagree with you, and an argument with the numbers is not one I'd recommend taking up.
I think the major reasons for fission was so the Physics branch didn't feel left out in terms of having an engine type to upgrade. Something interesting would be to have stronger drawbacks and specialization. The numbers show that in general there's a good variety and mixing of stats. Yet for some reason we all use AC and 3-phase (maybe use bio as a cheap place to stop by on the way up). Perhaps slightly more extreme performance and drawbacks could help distinguish the engines.
I think it would be best if fission and gas turbine just got some kind of special ability each. It's just easier for people to understand that way. At the very least, we don't need two "decent enough" engines, so one should get a special ability. Plus, it just makes the game more interesting. Fiddling with numbers just isn't as interesting as getting something special or getting an engine that is definitely the best at one thing. One thing that's been suggested is make it so one of those engines lets you back up as fast as you move forwards. That would have some use, at least. Another option: Make it so a tank with fission suffers no penalties for overheating, and can in fact continue to fire and move as much as it wants -- but, instead, it takes constant chassis damage while its heat meter is maxxed, and takes more any time additional heat would be added beyond that point. Moving while at maxxed heat prevents it from cooling down and increases the damage your chassis takes. This could be difficult to balance (too little damage and it would be absurdly overpowered. Too much, and researching it would be a death sentence as every noob on your team overheats and self-destructs.) But if it were done right, it could be interesting thematically, and add new strategies. Maybe slow down movement and attack speed a little bit while at max heat, for balance. (Yes, yes, I know it doesn't work that way. But screw realism; it fits thematically and would be fun. And it'd make for fun stories, too, especially since you could theoretically kill your enemy, but overheat so much in the process that your tank won't cool down in time, meaning you to bail just before it explodes.) Also, obviously, this would make fission weak against heat weapons, which would apply their heat damage right through your armor to your chassis if you're an overheated fission tank... but heat-battles with it wouldn't be dull like they are now. Either you'd kill the enemy fast, or they'd overheat your reactor and you would go BOOM.
Fiddling with numbers can actually do a lot. There are already quite a few numbers to fiddle with. For example, the way biodiesel doesn't stall is the result a few high numbers in the right places. I would recommend the following: 3Phase: speed 10, power 0, resilience 0, cooling 4 Fission : speed 8, power 10, resilience 4, cooling 0 Turbine: speed 7, power 7, resilience 7, cooling 7 Coolant: speed 3, power 4, resilience 5, cooling 10 Biodiesel: speed 2, power 5, resilience 10, cooling 5 Standard: speed 0, power 2, resilience 2, cooling 2 The cost per turbine engine would be high so it would mirror its armor counter part. The cost to research biodiesel would have to rise a bit since its stats are too good for how easy it is to reach in the research tree. The duality inherent in the research trees would be preserved with fission since it overheats easily. The only real problem with this layout is it assumes power affects acceleration and exerted force which might not be true, and even if it does affect both of those, high acceleration might make an engine un-usable unless the tendency to spin-out is overcome.
You just convinced me to look at the file. Interesting, if I am reading these numbers correctly, fission is as fast as a standard engine while going backwards and should have the highest acceleration while having purely better cooling that bio and a reasonable damage tolerance. I am going to have to test this thing out, looks magical. Oh yeah, but gas still sucks.
I think we should remove fission. All the other engines have their specific and useful niche (e.g. 3phase = fastest, AdvCool = best cooling). Gas turbine could become just an upgraded version of standard (i.e. good all-round engine but not great in any one category). BTW, nice analysis
I don't think fiddling with the numbers will be enough to give commanders incentive to go for fission and gas turbine over the other 'niche' engines. Three of the engines already have a niche: adv coolant is the best cooling engine, biodiesel is fast to research and allows the vehicle to move while overheated, and 3 phase is the undisputed fastest engine while also having good cooling. What I thought of was giving our two ugly duckling engines special abilities. I had two things in mind. Since gas turbine utilizes advanced machining and a conventional combustion engine, it could recieve a nitrous oxide tank that could be used to give the vehicle an acceleration/max speed boost temporarily. Such technology was utilized by the Germans in aircraft during WW2. It could be that you have a certain number of charges of NO2 that last a certain amount of time per tank, and once you use them all they expire, or they could gradually recharge. the fission engine, on the other hand, is basically a steam engine which utilizes heat from a fission reaction instead of a conventional boiler. Therefore, when extra heat accumulates in the boiler, some of the steam can be vented to reduce heat levels. This ability could be represented by a white bar above the heat bar. When activated, it rapidly dissipates heat by venting steam. Obviously, the engine can't vent too much steam or it will lose pressure, so the white bar will deplete as the ability is used. This white bar could gradually refill as steam is allowed to buildup, or for balance sake it could be a one-time ability that never recovers. these could be bound to the same key, since they would never be used at the same time. other activated abilities could be considered for the other non-standard engines.
If you want fission to have a weird trick, then I would recommend having it go faster based upon your heat but be the fastest engine. That said, I don't think this is necessary. It already has a good all-around base, and one niche nobody notices. Fastest backwards speed.
Well, if turbo jeeps exist... Why not give the Fission Engine a temporary speed boost, like in Motorstorm. Think about it, we are dealing with fission reaction, so increase the number of neutrons and let them fly. Of course, the boost would only be about 3 seconds, and the turbo speed would be 10% higher than 3phase max normal speed.
I really like this idea. Fission could be some kind of siege engine then ideal for heavy tanks. It builds up heat pretty fast, but has the ability to quickly dump the heat, but when doing so, speed goes down greatly. So basically you park heavy tanks somewhere and can fire some serious badass stuff, even plasma for extended periods of time, but at the cost of not being able to move - or at least crawl like a snail with no stall.
I just came on here to suggest a dynamic heat bar, with something like 150 heat for fission since it can handle heat well, 125 for bio diesel for the same reason and 50 for 3-phase because electric devices lose efficiency rapidly when heated. Thus creating a new niche for engines and a way to make current best egnines weaker without taking away from their niche. Then I read Pickled's suggestion and thought that his and mine can combine to create a strong diversity in engines without making any engine an obvious choice for most situations (like coolant is now, with 3-phase a close second). You could even beef up the standard engine and give the researched engines a single stat lower than the standard engine. Now to flesh it out, because I love doing that: A single "action bar" around the "heat bar" displaying different things depending on your engine, this action bar can also recharge at different rates depending on the engine (yet another difference between engines, we'll end up needing more engines at this rate :D ) . Standard : Nothing, gotta keep research incentives present if standard is going to be beefed. Bio Diesel : This is really the NO2 boosted engine since its the combustion engine, boosts acceleration and power, but not max speed. Can be used in bursts. Fission : Works on heated water so releasing steam to lower heat also lowers speed and power, perfect. Can also be used in bursts. Advanced Coolant : Tricky one, but you could give it a supercooling ability where once fired it wont stop until the action bar is empty and completely stops a vehicle in its tracks, but will also give that vehicle the highest possible heat dissipation allowing it to fire any weapon uninterrupted for as long as the action bar lasts, powerful so action bar should be slow to recharge. 3-phase: Increasing the engines max speed and acceleration by using the charge from a battery. Can also be used in bursts. Gas Turbine: It's a turbine like on a jet fighter, i say give it an afterburner that gives unbelievable power :E......Ok ok, I know they work differently, but I'd like to see a heavy tank drive straight over the hills in slaughtered from the BE start right into the NF start. How's that sound?
I really dont think that we should be headed down the road of gimmicky engines. A rebalance might be in order to turbine, but this does not mean giving them special powers is necessary. The game will become less... consistent... which will draw away from team strategy and lead towards individuals trying to be awesome
i would agree if tank battles are a complex and tactical experiance, sadly they are not, and when certain tanks are going to house multiple user slots operating multiple tank guns this would give the tank "commander" (driver + user of main cannons) more controle over his tank
Ok, I have gone through and tested every aspect of the engines and how they function over the past two hours, some interesting findings. Horsepower is definitely acceleration, but is relatively insensitive to changes on the scale that it is generally edited on. Maxspeed is exactly what it says it is, but is highly dependent upon horsepower to be functional. Horsepower determines the functional maxspeed for any given slope. Engine Stall heat just determines when engines stop working towards the maximum overheat point while running. Engines do not actually stall at this point, they will always stall instead at 100%. Engines either stall when overheated or do not. The only engine that does not is bio. There is no way without further code changes to have an engine that increases speed when about to overheat or only slows down partially. The gear numbers have such a minimal impact that even when changed by several orders of magnitude in every way possible I was unable to determine what the hell they did. They might have a minor impact upon how engine heating works, but best I can tell it is just an on/off switch with engine activation. From this I have come up with a relatively simple suggestion for gas and fission. Fission: Becomes drivable when overheated. Increase heat generated when driving by 1(now is by double highest). Make engine stallpoint at .8, making heat stop accumulating when red is just starting, perhaps even lower. Increase horsepower slightly. Retain All other aspects. Result: Physics engine becomes second fastest and immune to overheating effects, but will overall ofheat far more easily causing weapons use to be highly limited with it. When the engine is stopped it ties for second for fastest cooling in the game, when the engine is on it is the highest heat generator of all the engines. This would make the phys engine highly situated for hit and run while retaining bio as an overall more resilient engine that is reliable and wont cause weapons to overheat as much while driving. Gas Turbine: Lower Weight to half Increase horsepower to become tied with current highest. Retain Current speed. Retain current heat generation, but set stall heat to .6, making it stop generating heat early on. Result: Becomes a reliable light weight engine which has cooling just barely worse than coolant while it is driving and in medium heat. Is about as hard to research as coolant but better all around. Opinions?
