emp_tropicvendetta

Discussion in 'Mapping' started by John Shandy`, Jan 21, 2009.

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  1. Vessboy

    Vessboy Member

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    So you settled on structures shaped like wet excriment?
    This map has piles, not mountains not hills. You can explain why my references wont work. But thats besides the point.

    And the source engine likes cliffs. lets get some of those.
     
  2. [lodw]keef

    [lodw]keef Hobbit

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    I actually purposefully stayed away from cliffs, I prefer the idea of terrain blocking the path not quite literally walls. Not done with this anyway, beta1 son. Have already done some retexturing on the mountains to give a more jungle feel to it since we have access to OB stuff as of 2.2. Get away from the desert mountain look.
     
  3. John Shandy`

    John Shandy` Member

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    Island or no island, the only thing the 1st picture represents is a terrain contour that would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ... ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be fun to drive vehicles on or fight as infantry.

    As for 2nd picture, my island features no volcano, so I will not be putting those in.

    As for 3rd picture, I originally had a similar cliff in the South East, but given that it didn't look good, didn't make sense, and didn't add anything to the game play, I removed it.

    Some of you people need to realize that 70% of what makes a good map is its game play. The other 30% is cosmetic. Alpha 1, Alpha 2, Beta 1 all look fantastic, and Beta 2 will look even better.

    Excess realism is never fun - some people failed to learn that at the turn of Empires 2.2 - others of us have learned it, as we took a step backward towards "fun" with 2.22.

    Furthermore, surely those aren't the best pictures of nature you can find. Two of them aren't even tropical. If you want to see what a tropical island looks like, it's simple: Google "tropical island." Or, if you want to see some great examples of tropical island implementations in game level design, Google for "FarCry" and "Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II."

    I can't - and most certainly won't - just provide a Hammer-made copy of a real tropical island, because no matter what I do, it won't ever look exactly like a real tropical island, and it absolutely positively will not ever be fun or practical for Empires game play. People would rtv away from it every chance they get.

    If I wanted 110% realism, I'd have put so many palm trees on the island that you can't see 5 virtual feet in front of you, much less drive a vehicle or even place structures. It simply would not be fun. Compromises must be made to allow for Empires game play.

    Also, this is a Beta 1. It's therefore not finalized. I suggest reading this article in its entirety: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_version#Beta

    There is much more in store for future versions of Tropic Vendetta, so I encourage patience - it's a virtue. In the first post of this thread, I say it as clear as crystal that Beta 1's purpose is to test game play before continuing ahead with polishing. Excessive polishing before a map is determined to be "fun" is bad, and is largely why great a several great-looking maps are rtv'd away from mercilessly on the most popular servers.

    Real mature - just insult the displacement work because it doesn't look 100% like real life. By the way, where are your threads in the mapping forum that showcase successful maps that most of everyone likes & typically don't rock the vote on? I see none. Do you even know anything about Hammer or the Source SDK? Keef's explanation is accurate and most certainly isn't besides the point. Your point is we should have ribbed cliffs. His point is that ribbed cliffs aren't possible, and when attempted, don't look like real life ribbed cliffs. The points are completely related.

    I prefer the mountains. The cliffs that we had on the map before didn't look good and didn't provide an island feel, and were promptly replaced with mountains. I'm frankly pleased that we did away with them. I'm tired of almost every Empires map looking the exact same, with cookie cutter mazes of cliffs and some resource nodes - not original, marginally fun.

    As much as people may want it, I'm not going to remake emp_isle with blimps and call it a day. If you want another emp_isle, make it yourself.

    I'm all for suggestions, but people are pushing this a bit far as I continue to hear from them about the cosmetics of Tropic Vendetta. I am taking suggestions to heart, I do know the map doesn't look as good as it can (yet, because it's in Beta 1, mind you), and I am definitely open to suggestions. However, we have a vision in our heads about what we want the map to look like, and UK cliffs don't fit into our vision - neither do vehicle-impeding or structure-impeding mountains/cliffs.
     
  4. Vessboy

    Vessboy Member

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    I said copy nature, thats all.

    Your game play is solid. now it's time for pretty stick.

    "where are your threads in the mapping forum that showcase successful maps that most of everyone likes & typically don't rock the vote on?"

    This is your first map...
    So... humility... is out the window huh?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_sioHsT7GQ&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  5. [lodw]keef

    [lodw]keef Hobbit

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    O_o

    I dont recall posting the know-it-all on anyones map post?

    And I actually dont listen to music, so don't understand your link in the least bit.
     
  6. Vessboy

    Vessboy Member

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    More of a reply to Jhons post.
    And the basis of that song is they hate thier fans and they openly insult them(a complete lack of gratitude and humillity).
     
  7. John Shandy`

    John Shandy` Member

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    No, it's not. This is my first map, but for a first map (not only for the mod, but for the Source SDK in general) I'd say it's doing quite well thus far. You've already humiliated yourself.

    I'm also not 100% that game play is solid just yet, so it's where most of my concerns rest.

    You really should reconsider wanting me to copy nature - if I were to copy nature, you'd have another emp_emptytheserver or emp_rockthevote for everyone to rarely play. People keep suggesting bizarre things to me for the map: hotels on the mainland, pirate ships that circle the island, volcanos & lavaflow, dinosaurs, mudkipz NPCs, United Kingdom cliff faces, nukes, shamoo, you name it. We need suggestions we can work with that fit the theme of the map. I do intend to add a shark (or multiple sharks) that swim around the SE island with trigger_hurt brushes at their mouths, but it will be an easter egg for a future version.

    Equating portions of the map to "wet excrement" is as disrespectful as can be, especially given a Beta 1. Sinking, NF Escort, and KUTM all look great imho, but people won't play them - they rtv. I'm trying to avoid that path. Do people really want me to cover the island in so many perfectly shaped cliffs & mountains that they can't build/drive? I'd hope not, but then again "This is your first map... So... humility... is out the window huh?" - so what the fuck do I know.

    No more queer-ass Youtube videos, plawcks.
     
  8. [lodw]keef

    [lodw]keef Hobbit

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    Some new screens of the retextured cliffs.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    I think its impossible to "copy nature" with a game engine like source.
    Thats why i dont care if my maps look "real" its not possible anyway.
    A map can look whatever the mapper wants it to be.
    Its his map. HIS, like "NOT YOURS"
     
  10. Metal Smith

    Metal Smith Member

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    says the "needs more alpha paint" guy... :P
     
  11. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Hey you can just ignore it and think "gtfo stupid" :P
     
  12. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i disagree, making it look natural in the source engine is a work of art on its own, and deserves the motivation it can use

    if you can make it play awesome, good! the map is usefull and will be played

    if you, on top of that can make it look natural, even if in essence its just another symmetrical canyon valley with no entrance but still cv's NEED to conquer this strip of land, then awe and glory to you, for you are and will from this time on always be able to wear the title of artist with honor

    a map in games are like a peace of furniture, it can be Ikea practical, but cheap and ugly. And then you have basically the same type of furniture, only its louis xiv, gold coated oaken. it costs a little more (work for the mapper) but believe me, to own an Ikea or to own a... i think you guys get the picture

    (i do not support Ikea furniture bashing, it is a fine store of furniture practical above esthetics's for a very domestic price, i myself enjoy the comfort of a chair purchased in one of those stores myself, no Ikea furniture was harmed in the making of this thread and yes i just felt like doing silly today)
     
  13. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    How do you expect to create real looking hills and outside areas with
    displacements as we have in the source engine?

    Why should I aim to make it look "real" A mapper can map like he wants to
    map he doesnt need to make it look realistic. There should be no boundarys
    what you have to do because some people think a map should look like
    real life. Throw imagination and creativity in a bin cause it has to be realistic...
     
  14. John Shandy`

    John Shandy` Member

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    I don't think they quite get it, Mayama. I don't even think they know what a displacement is, or that it is comprised of triangular geometry which limits the level of detail that can be achieved. I've not said that Keef or I have yet achieved the maximum level of detail that can be achieved, but our displacement work certainly doesn't look bad - it may not be 110% realistic, but it doesn't look awful. It's a Beta 1, and we're not even done tweaking the mountains. They were originally just stand-in mountains anyway. It's likely they'll change quite a bit. For some reason, so-called fans who expect gratitude like to make assumptions that emp_tropicvendetta_b1 will remain as-is, even though my original post clearly identifies this map as a Beta 1, meaning we haven't yet brought -all- of our creativity into the map, much less finished polishing.

    Chris's KUTM cliffs look great, but you'll never find such cliffs anywhere in the real world - but they look great nonetheless. I'm not sure why people yield creative freedom to some people and not others. I like emp_blah, but there's not much in it that looks realistic. Most of what is found in Empires' existing maps doesn't look like a copy of any nature.

    If people want an emp_isle with blimps, they'll have to make it themselves, because emp_isle is not what we want and it is not a good representation of a tropical island (cliffs, black water, no hills, minimal palm trees, etc. yet I still like it). If people want more realism in my map, then find me better palm trees than Empires' default palm trees. Drummer_X sent me some palm trees that a Garry's Mod modeler created, but I don't like them because their trunks are about as thin as a drinking straw - at least when looking at them in Nem's Model Browser.

    I don't think I can even achieve the level of detail featured in the original FarCry's tropical environments. To put that much foliage in would likely create performance issues, and the mountains in FarCry were mostly not even true mountains, but rather large hills that looked generated, as opposed to being manual displacements.

    I know the map doesn't look 100% real. I know that when standing on the shore of Tropic Vendetta, nobody will ever truly feel like they're standing on Martinique in the French West Indies or on some island in the Bahamas. I want it to look better, and will listen to suggestions. However, if people are expecting Hawaii in just a few releases, they'll be duly disappointed.

    Mayama was right about the alpha painting, and much more of that has been done. It did need it, we just hadn't gotten around to it yet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  15. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    ask omneh he can tell you a story :P
     
  16. Vessboy

    Vessboy Member

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    A small(and new) Island like that wouldnt have much foilage. Infact the trees would only be on the shore line. I don't expect a picture perfect replica. But your hils have the shape of loose soil thats been rained on for less then a year(maybe even a day).

    When I say copy nature I mean to Imitate it. How was this island foremed? with volcano activity out of the question you have 2 optings Iether a tectonic shift or man made(random soil dumping). the second matches your current shape. Rather then bash me... Challenge me. I cant use hammer. But you take a screen shot of the island and I'll redraw it to appear more natural.And yes I know how brushes work, I will use those restrictions in my designe.

    Are you willing to challenge me? I think it could help.
     
  17. John Shandy`

    John Shandy` Member

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    There are ~50 screenshots (some of alpha 2, some of beta 1, and some of upcoming beta 2) here: http://empires.martinpace.com/images/johnshandy/emp_tropicvendetta/

    Draw away.

    As I said, I'm open to suggestions. What I won't stand for is random insulting labels and trolling.

    During the first month of working on Tropic Vendetta, I got a ton of stuff done while Keef was away on a 7-day vacation to some gorgeous areas of Belize. We're quite well aware of what islands look like, how they're formed, and how much foliage they should have. We didn't magically wake up and imagine how an island would look.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
  18. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i don't think YOU GUYS quite get it, i KNOW the hardship of displacements, i have a hate/love affair with the source engine because of it and have doubted to go back to the quakegold engine a couple of times but refused, but this is why i know that if you CAN make it look natural, and you actually pull it off the reward is worth all the effort because you will have a map that is a work of art
     
  19. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    ...and what if the mapper DOESNT WANT to make a map that looks natural?
    You cant dictate what the mapper wants to map, if he wants to make something
    that doesnt look natural its his own right and its equaly good as a "natural" map...
     
  20. Vessboy

    Vessboy Member

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    van Gogh
    [​IMG]
    Or M.C. Escher
    [​IMG]

    You do have your creative license to do what ever you want. But you have an audience.These art masters did their own thing. But both imitated nature. Really tho both pieces are beautifull and masterful. But they both twist reality.But they're unrealistic art wasn't driven by a lack of skill or patience but a desire to create an experience for their audience.

    Before you guys get upset that I am comparing you to masters, I'm not. I'm simply saying it's not fair to use Artistic license as an excuse for laziness or lack of skill. If those are the case admit it don't claim thats how you vissioned it when it's not.

    This is mainly geard toward Mayama

    Tropic Vendetta is a WIP
    I'm just focucing on it's weak point
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
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