[2.23] [Feedback] Artillery

Discussion in 'Archive' started by dizzyone, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. L3TUC3

    L3TUC3 Member

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    Um. No.

    Arty was never supposed to be rapidfire. Low RoF, large range, large damage.

    You'd have to nerf the damage a lot for it to work and honestly rapid fire artillery would just kill infantry gameplay.
     
  2. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Er, did you miss the part that said 'make it do the same thing as dual small arty'?

    As in instead of having two cannons, have one with twice the fire speed, so you can normalise the damage output rather than have it come in fits and starts like dual arty, you can also reduce the fire speed and/or damage as neccesary.
     
  3. bitchslap

    bitchslap Member

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    just raise the dam cost of the thing already so a team can only afford 1-2 arty's on the field. They'll also protect them more if they cost 2000-2500 EACH.

    Yes the comm MAY have to lock the vf and build them himself for plyrs BUT it means you dont have to nerf the fuck out of the artillery which frankly fits its ROLE perfectly. Its a base wrecker and an infantry suppressor.

    At most you'll ever see 4 arty tanks at once with that kind of price and hell if a team manages to save that much money then they deserve to rape the map.

    fixed.
     
  4. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    God no don't make arty that expensive, the answer is never to make things too expensive, because that puts too much power in one player's hands.

    What's fun about losing the game because your arty driver was an idiot?

    Reduce the power of arty and make it so that you use it differently, give it firepower but don't have it be spammable, make it so that you have a dedicated aiming system, possibly something like UT2004's SPMA artillery, something that lets you aim it precisely but leaves you incapable of defending yourself when in operation, if you add more precision to artillery it becomes less spammy and more thought based, you have to predict where the target will be when the shell lands and aim there, rather than just keep shooting until you hit something.

    Personally I think some sort of top-down view a bit like the comm and wherever you click, that's where you fire, if you give that sort of precise aiming to the arty, and reduce the ROF across the board, that would solve the problem, especially if you make the arty slower or give it a deploy button, something to make it hard to move around, meaning you have to set it up in a secure location and keep it there for a while because if you keep moving around you won't get much shooting done.

    Therefore, having half a dozen of them won't be practical, because you'll run out of targets and you can't fight a war with six arty tanks blocking up the place, you'll get more kills if you take a heavy tank but arty will appeal to people who like a different playstyle, it would become the vehicle for the sniper, doesn't get many kills but when it does it does so very effectively, and as buildings/large groups of infantry are important targets, while single infantry are not, artillery will be useful where sniping is not.

    It still defeats turret farms and will still wear down your defence if you don't attack it and kill it, so it still does what arty does, it just does it without being as spammy, it also opens up the possibility of counter arty fire, one arty tank figuring out where the incoming fire is originating from and sending their own arty fire back, and that's something I think it awesome in and of itself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2009
  5. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    I'm going to sidestep your solution for a moment here Chris.

    Why not just increase the loading times of arty? Or better yet, make it when there are two artillery weapons in the arty slot, you double the reload time for each ^^

    This could actually be applied to a lot of weaponry types to keep 2-slot versions superior to dual 1-slot loadouts. Without nerfing 1-slot types across the board.

    ^ Is that worth talking about, or has it been suggested before?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2009
  6. bitchslap

    bitchslap Member

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    as a commander you also get the choice of WHEN to research something. if you have a noob team, dont get arty till LATE in the game when u can afford to lose them.

    ANOTHER POSSIBILITY:

    - reduced RoF to about 50% (perhaps 30-40%) of current
    - increase damage at least about 1.6x
    - eliminate reload, 40 shells with no clips

    this would produce a more 'real' artillery with slower 'shell loading' and high high damage that would really only be effective against bases.

    yes it may not be as fun to use, but it would still be deadly as shit and great for killing turtles. it also leaves yer arty tank VERY vulnerable (which they should be) to tanks.
     
  7. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    That's just a convoluted way of saying 'reduce the damage'.

    By all means reduce the damage, the excessive damage is the problem with artillery, but I also think the weapon platform itself could be developed into something more interesting.
     
  8. bitchslap

    bitchslap Member

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    the problem right now is the arty spam being an issue, not the dmg.

    spam = too many tanks/shells raping everything.

    reducing the rof and increasing the dmg will fix this.
     
  9. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    How?

    Three arties shooting a dozen low damage shells per five seconds would be just as tolerable as three arties shooting half a dozen high damage shells per five seconds, damage per second is what matters, because damage per second is what kills things quickly.

    In that respect now that I come to think about it, your idea is a lot worse, it's worse even than the current state of affairs because if all of those arties shoot at once, you're going to get three shells packed full of condensed rape and pwn landing in the space of a second, and that is going to kill anything in one salvo, reducing the damage per shell however means that no matter how you fire, you can never do more than a moderate amount of DPS.
     
  10. bitchslap

    bitchslap Member

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    no DPS isn't all that its made out to be (by some in this community).

    yes it has its influence and importance in tank battles, but you are neglecting the reality of online gaming.

    in my propesed arty situation : 2-3 artys fire at MOST at one time and do almost double the damage as currently, THEN they reload more than half as slow as currently, which allows teams to say 'hey the fucking got arty, kill that shit or we lose"


    then imagine : 1-2 team tanks rush the shit out of those artys and feck em up bad and/or chase them away BEFORE they can mange to fire more than 2 volleys.

    balancing is about allowing reasonable counter-attacks, not about DPS.
     
  11. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No, because when you do double the damage as current, you will kill the barracks or the tanks or whatever you're shooting at and the enemy can't counterattack because they're already dead. How do the enemy say 'hey they're artying' before the structure dies? With high damage low ROF the gun doesn't do 200 damage over eight seconds, it does 200 damage instantly and then has to wait a while, if you want to have time to counterattack you need low damage high rate of fire.

    Reducing the DPS and normalising it so you can't change it by firing in salvos means that the enemy will still have time to say 'hey they are artying' but won't instantly lose whatever is being shot at because they'll also have time to set up an engy repair team.

    DPS is the only thing that matters, if you have a gun that does a million damage but can only fire once per game, that's a problem, because for a short time it has a huge DPS, and on the same note, if you assume a gun is shit because it does 3 damage and ignore the 20 RPS fire rate, you will also be unable to balance it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  12. bitchslap

    bitchslap Member

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    u are firstly overestimating the accuracy of the gun and the likelihood of people ALL hitting their targets on the initial shot.

    scenario:

    fire one : miss
    8-9 second reload
    enemy team says : arty!! scramble some tanks
    second shot : hits
    vf/rax/radar (pick one if u have a semi competent team) lost due to dmg
    enemy team gets tanks on the field
    third shot : major damage, possible miss but probably nother building lost
    reloading (nother 8-9 secs)
    enemy tanks engage and destroy or chase off artys .

    this is not an unrealistic situation nor is it a big stretch for empires players. if its still too rape, then make it reload every 10 seconds.

    its a very easy fix for something that we all agree is seriously fucked up right now and is ruining ALL chokepoint maps.

    more can be done in the future but this really needs to be addressed promptly over svr admins are going to simply modify their scripts and ppl are gonna have no clue why their arty is raping the entire map all of a sudden.

    please fix it one way or another, and chris try some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.....open your mind.
     
  13. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No, I'm going to keep my mind on track with the things that work, I don't agree with things that make no sense, and what you said doesn't. If you want to make arty easier to chase off, then having high damage and low ROF will not do that as well as having low damage and high ROF will, it's as simple as that. High damage low ROF means you can potentially kill before the enemy can react, while low damage high ROF means you can't, no matter how good you are.

    Both of them can be balanced to be less powerful, but only my suggestion will always be less powerful.
     
  14. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    I dont know it its already mentioned but arty shouldnt be able to easily overheat tanks.
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Arty shouldn't be very effective against tanks full stop. It's supposed to be a base killer, if the people you're using it against get tanks together and mount a counterattack, arty alone should not be able to stop them, you should need tanks for that.
     
  16. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Things needed to fix arty:
    1) Less Armor. Shouldnt they be like a glass cannon, easy to kill but easy to elminate people. 1-2 Slots per side. This will force arty to actually stay with a team. The low armor will also give the opposing infantry a chance to defend themselves. I don't know why the best damaging vehicle in the game is also one of the most heavily armored.
    2) Dual Slot Singles removed.
    3) Quicker reload time in between clips.
     
  17. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    2) is already done.
     
  18. BitterJesus

    BitterJesus Member

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    I agree, artillery has more armor than an LT? What the fock? Furthermore, you can put on 3 plates full reactive armor on each side, what a crock of shit.
     
  19. Nitrax

    Nitrax Member

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    QTF
    QTF
    QTF A million times. It's so annoying that 1 sticky has a good chance to kill an APC to LT, but I've never killed a arty with one. It always survives.

    At the moment tanks can't counter arty, which they should, as they can't kill the arty fast enough.
     
  20. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    How do you kill an arty that is behind a wall or a hill with a tank, please tell me.
    You cant deconstuct the walls cause the arty denys infantry to come close to it
     

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