XP Vs. Vista

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Hendar23, Nov 29, 2008.

  1. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Realize, most people don't buy until SP1, whent he OS suddenly "gets good" - forget that the SP is just a patch rollup in the end...but whatever. Win7 SP1 won't be until a year+ after its release. Vista will live for a few years, and repeat for Win7, then Win8, then Win1234
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2008
  2. dizzyone

    dizzyone I've been drinking, heavily

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    I don't really get the arguement about whether you need to upgrade from xp to vista if the only thing you're going to do is use e-mail or spreadsheets. I'm pretty sure a 086 can do both fine, why not just get one of those if it fits your needs?
     
  3. Hendar23

    Hendar23 Member

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    Why not? I look at business machines in offices and receptions and wonder why they are so powerful. They could do the job with ten year old technology. You should be able to buy an office computer for $200. Modern PCs are for games, graphic design, stuff actually demand so much power. Not web browsing and excel.
     
  4. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Lets see...for one, the office programs they use for scheduling...and then the company installs tons of crappy programs on the systems that run in the background (and I don't just mean antivirus!) and if you mean web browsing, have you forgotten Javascript, Flash, Flex, Silverilght and the likes? And HD video...sorry, but for HD, you need either:

    a beefy CPU. A REALLY beefy CPU...

    or a GPU with a hardware decoder.
     
  5. Hendar23

    Hendar23 Member

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    Somehow we managed before. Everywhere I've worked the IT guys have kept a very tight reign on what is installed. My wife uses her laptop all day for work. she doesn't need to visit Flash heavy websites, or watch HD videos (who the fuck needs HD videos for working?) She uses MS office (2003), Outlook and uses IE for looking at reference sites. Same stuff she was using five years ago. How come her PC managed back then, with a fraction of the proccessing power and RAM? Sometimes I feel they put extra features into these apps just for the sake of it, using the extra power just because it's there.
     
  6. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    @ android: why do i get the feeling you have stocks in microsoft?

    hendar, try turning vista's visuals on low (win95 visuals)
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2008
  7. Hendar23

    Hendar23 Member

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    rampant works for them, I believe. He's the only guy I've found who will defend Microsoft. I can't have this debate anywhere else, it's quite refreshing. :D
     
  8. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    it is! i feel unbiassed already ^^
     
  9. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    Frankly, I would like to see a no-frills version of Windows OS that can only do the basics (run word processors, simple browsing, etc.) and requires less powerful hardware. I have several old computers that work perfectly fine, but are simply not powerful enough to handle XP or Vista. They essentially became worthless once most programs dropped support for Win98/2000/ME. It would be nice to see a MS-like version of something like damn small linux (DSL).
     
  10. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Because you visit forums like these that are teeming with immature runts, for the most part.

    Go look at the hard OCP forums, Anandtech forums - etc - if you want to find actual debates. If you go on the hard OCP forums and post this thread, you'll probably get nearly every forum member to flame you, and then kyle will lock the thread.

    Sigh. Read the news. Win7 + 1 GHz proc + 1 GB RAM = Windows on a netbook. It was demoed. Win7 is performant from everything I've read in the news.

    Again, there are plenty of people on real tech forums that will flame you for going and saying "VISTA SUCKS YEAHHHH." People are sick of the uninformed masses just blaming Vista. Stop reading the blogs that just wanted to up their viewship, and to do so, ranted about Vista. It isn't cool anymore. Seriously.

    As far as OFFICE use...people end up grabbing the new Office versions and so forth...that are slightly more hungry. Do we code to what the current hardware is (by we, I mean, programmers - not MS specifically)? Yeah. 30 years ago we coded for 1K of memory. Now we code for a GB of memory. Coding stuff to just work is easy. Coding stuff to be performant on older hardware is hard as hell, and leads to longer product release cycles. Managed code also requires a beefier system, as it is not as performant as native code, but the advantages of managed code are endless.

    And by Flash/HD, I mean the average "Joe" - people who aren't gamers.

    Yeah, because I just tow the MS line, and drink the cool aid. I have plenty of gripes with my company...err, my masters. I just withhold them, for good reasons.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2008
  11. Hendar23

    Hendar23 Member

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    Ok! Maybe I will.

    ....erm then maybe I won't :D

    Seriously though, I do get were your coming from, I really do, but you gotta admit that some peoples gripes with Vista are valid. The XP griping was nothing compared to the Vista shitstorm. I understand your points though.

    Also, in a world where we are starting to realize that resources are getting increasingly scarce, it just makes sense to get as much use out of hardware as possible. Endless upgrading can't be the only answer, surely? Is it not right to try and use a piece of hardware until it is completely worthless before recycling it? In gaming almost all that power has gone into graphical upgrades. Ragdolls and stuff are cool, but most of that extra power seems to be directed at making things look pretty, and we seem to get less and less bank for our buck. Think of the time you first got a graphics card and went from playing Quake in software to OpenGL. Huge difference. Now we spend hundreds of bucks to get a DirectX 10 compatible card and the improvement over DirectX 9 is...negligible. (I looked at a comparison shot of DX9 and 10. I thought 'well they look different, but which on is supposed to be better?')

    I lost track of where I was going with this...but I think you get were I'm coming from. Maybe...
     
  12. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    Sweet! Can't wait to see it :)

    lol! I'm still using Office 2000. Works just as great as the first day I bought it.
     
  13. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Translation: "They don't share my view, and 5000+ people before me have posted the same thing (meaning the regulars on the forum are tired of the same tired "debate") therefore I won't go there. I only go places that agree with me."

    I'm being an ass, I know, but trying to make a point.

    Yes, I've said it many times in many different places: there ARE problems with Vista. But most every time people post their gripes, I've gotta say...their complaints are bullshit. They just (re)post what blogs are posting. They fail to post any real problems...and usually it is because they used Vista for 10 minutes, starting with the childish, assinine, uninformed, fucktard opinions that the bloggers put out there about Vista. Just like the bloggers are going on Win7 already - "OMG COPY OS X"...come on. Sorry, but it isn't a final OS yet...its only been released for developers. Trying to judge it now is just stupid...a lot can change between now and RTM.

    Should we try to keep old things working? Sure...but look at what is driving the upgrades. XP has worked consistently on a single core processor with 1 GB of RAM (or less) well for a long time. It took us 7 years or so for a new Windows version to force an upgrade. 7 years. Tell me, can you not afford a single upgrade in 7 years? Most Windows copies are sold with new PCs, so the upgrade is a non-issue.

    What IS driving upgrades? Word, Powerpoint...they have become more hungry, sure...but they're adding more features...and they may or may not be using WPF. Not sure there - but that would account for performance losses there. So then what is? First on the list, browsing. "Ajax" and other stuff using the abomination called "Javascript." Talk about a performance sink. The perf difference is worse than comparing ASP's perf to PHP's perf...ASP is wildly more performant, but not as big as comparing compiled code to script. So here, shitty scripting languages are piling up.

    And Flash. God, talk about a pile of shit, and a great perf hit.

    Then you've got HD video...which you can't decode on a single core proc...let alone a dual core. You need video decoders to do it.

    So what is driving upgrades? Gaming. Come on, just say it. And it isn't like games are efficient. Crysis Warhead did "minor" code optimizations and got MASSIVE performance increases...consoles in this light are a god send; you get THIS hardware...for 5 YEARS, and you LIVE with it. Want your game to look good and be playable? Be fucking efficient. PC gaming has not encouraged that. In fact, 3DFX, nVidia, ATI/AMD...they're 100% at fault, with their Crossfire/SLI bullshit (and whatever 3DFX's solution was called.) SLI has allowed devs to be horribly inefficient.

    You won't see a big push for efficiency, until Intel makes a press release saying "OMG WE CAN'T GET THE TRANSISOR ANY SMALLER, THE SKY IS FALLING!!!" and suddenly the public will "care" until some new press release tells them to worry that fleas are on the brink of extinction.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2008
  14. Foxy

    Foxy I lied, def a Forum Troll

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    Thats when we go to quantum computing/organic computing/etc.
     
  15. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Organic will see the same limits...the limit is the size of an atom in the end. Quantum computing, for the time being...is as meaningless as string theory to me.

    Actually, string theory is more meaningful, as it makes for good jokes. :p
     
  16. Foxy

    Foxy I lied, def a Forum Troll

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    I think you'll find the limit isn't the size of an atom, but the size of the universe. :P

    Remember the old tube computers? If we made a computer with today's tech, of the size of a warehouse, it'd be quite powerful.
     
  17. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    try MS-dos

    cant browse Internet thou..

    anyway, i believe ranpantanoid makes some good points here and there, but then again i would say that noone is really to blame, progression always comes with stutters and jumps, strechmarks and sore muscles

    once the computer as it is now becomes a more adult device, these things will fix themselves
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2008
  18. Hendar23

    Hendar23 Member

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    I was just trying to lighten the mood with some humour...:(

    My argument is not directed at the informed geek. I'm talking about Joe Public, who is the intended audience. Lets try an analogy. You make a pretentious arty movie, and the popcorn chewing mass slate it. They tell you it slow and boring. You would be quite right to call them ignorant fuckers, they are not your intended audience. but if you put it out for general release, it doesn't matter if the art house crowd can explain its subtleties, your movie will divebomb and you should have seen it coming. Vista is for everyone who has a new PC, the vast majority of which are the popcorn chewing ignorant masses, not the informed geek. If you don't give them the summer blockbuster they want, you have to expect them to complain.

    Oh totally. Completely. The mass demand more eye-candy. But what percentage of PCs in the world are being used for high end gaming? I don't see why someone who wants a PC for his business needs to buy even the crappest PC available in places like Best Buy.
     
  19. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    I thoruoughly disagree. Part of the advantage of minaturizing (aside from heat, but I'll get to that) is speed. But by speed, I mean of an electron. A warehouse of tubes will still be slow, due to the amount of distance an electron has to travel to go from RAM to a register, to an adder and back again. A current daty CPU will see a much lower amount of time for the same action - the difference would be measureable, and VERY noticeable.

    And heat, tubes ran very hot...current transistors are far more manegable. And furthermore, the speed at which a transistor can switch on and off is vastly shorter than a tube turning on and off.

    I see where the arguement is directed, and realize...I'm an engineer. I'm disconnected from the average person to a degree. I try to "represent" them, but I don't accept them being uninformed. I argue that they SHOULD be more informed! They should be less exploitable.

    And I'm also arguing that to the average user, they don't have any real gripes with Vista. Nags, sure...but I doubt many have found real problems - they're just repeating the same tired lines from useless bloggers. I STILL see people claim that Vista 64 has bad drivers. Come on. Driver support has been fine since May '07. But no, bloggers still hem and haw about it, and the public just accepts it. So in the end, they either never try it...and if they do, they go in WANTING it to be bad...they look for problems, don't look for improvements...and so forth.

    Mojave is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about. So where does that blame fall? Two places. Well, three. One: Bloggers. They lied, and they got away with it. The power of the blogger. I hate bloggers with a passion, for the most part.

    Two: The uninformed masses. They need to be informed.

    Three: We, who failed to inform the masses (Microsoft) - we didn't advertise. And that is perhaps the biggest failure right there.


    Also, on the business PCs comment, I've seen doctors offices and such starting to use remote PCs. They're just a connected box with a KB/Mouse/Monitor and ethernet jack. They connect to a blade in some server rack, and use that as their CPU and such...the box on the desk just does the display and control. Works well - MS has some of them in their classrooms. Essentially going back to the system of yesteryear: a terminal you use, that is connected to some mainframe. Funny that we're "evolving" backwards here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2008
  20. Hendar23

    Hendar23 Member

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    Ahh, we reach agreement :)

    Thinking of that whole speed-of-electrons deal. I hear the reason chips are flat is because if you made a 3D chip it would overheat, but it could potentially be very fast as the components would be much closer together than if you laid them out on a conventional 2D plane. I read somewhere these dudes in Japan had made a prototype 3D chip. It is basically loads of thin chips stacked on top of each other, and they had overcome the heat problem by leave a gap just big enough for a single air molecules to pass through for cooling.

    Sweet. Nanotech FTW.
     

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