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Ermm ok!
06-03-2006, 05:22 PM
Ok guys n gals

you all know what i mean.

Your roxoring away in your combat attack jeep , its full of cool dudes with rocket guns.

Then all of a sudden out of no where YOU HAVE BEEN DEFEATED / ARE VICTORIUS. WTF is going on here?

Well what just happend is some douchebag engineer and his friend Captin douchebag just drove upto your com vehical in a jeep and plonked down an ML turret and a box of ammo. WOOOAHHH SERIOUS STRATERGY THERE DOUCHEBAGS.

Personally i think this sort of lame ass game ending stratergy should be prevented by doing somthing cool and slapping down lame ass douchebags.

Seriously tho , on a serious note here. This type of game is no fun. You get settled into a game , its fairly balanced then Bluuuarweerrghhhhh some russian guy with a dodgy accent is breaking up all the fun and all you get to look at is the score bored and aload of douche bags saying "WTF WOAHHH PWNED I TOTALLY ML TURRET / GRENADE SPAMMED YOUR CV"

Ok , the douchebags amoungst you will be saying WOOOAHH Douchebag why didnt you defend your base? The answer is there are too many douchebags on public servers , sometimes the main base gets left behind and the douchebag in the comm jeep gets carried away placing walls and turrets somewhere else and by the time hes finished spelling his name in ML / MG turrets somewhere remote on the map his douchebag brains have been exploderated by grenade spam and an ML turret.

Ok no arguing now , i dont understand how anyone can enjoy this kind of play its really frustrating. Lets all just agree its bad and make the devs change it , possibly by driving jeeps into there houses.

TEAM DOUCHEBAG RULES!

Chew
06-03-2006, 05:30 PM
ya ya

OutlawFurey
06-03-2006, 06:00 PM
something tells me you like the word douchebag

dizzyone
06-03-2006, 06:02 PM
well it can always be explained

ill explain 2 games with you guys where it happened

one where i was comm and we got ninjad.
Well it wasnt defended and i forgot to move the cv, easy as that, my fault for not thinking about it (i have my reasons why i forgot but not that important)

second was when I ninjad the cv.

Well i just walked around the map, you guys did not have a single mg or whatever defending your base, i waited a few secs till everyone stormed out of base and ninjad it with ease.

Why? Because there was no other way for us to win, the real reason is proby balancing issues, and tbh most games I play are like this, it has to be turretspam or arty or ninja, why, because the games are or too short to get some research or too long where all your money goes into trying to defend whatever you have by the cheapest resources you have because you have low income.
Ending in the very cheap turretspam, which actually isnt that cheap because you couldnt research anything because of it or get some good tanks rolling, but hey who would trust their team with an expensive tank that could be spent on 20 mg turrets and 10 ml turrets, or in a case of an heavy, 20 ml turrets and 18 mg turrets, level3 ofcourse.

And not only that, people do not realise the big leaks they leave in their defence, but because some actions are very powerfull right now they can still win because of that.
I think the research tree as it is right now works the other way around, people can get to the most powerfull things in 5 mins, and can have them all in 10 to 15 mins, there doesnt need to be any real strategy involved because everything breaks down to is your whole team competent, if both teams have incompetent team (7 out of 10) then everything stands or falls on the right person with the right weapons

Lock N' Load
06-03-2006, 06:04 PM
Geeze, you're obsessed with femine hygen products, aren't you?

I agree though, Ninja wins/losses are unfullfilling. If I'm going to loose, I want to watch as my CV goes down with the bodies of both teams surrounding it as it is pounded with rockets, greandes, and calculators. If, if I'm going to win, I want to have my team surronding their base, watching as every exposive weapon we have is launched towardss their CV, weapons firing to take down what ever resistance they are showing.
Not some random, "Guys with wussy ninjas win!" That's why I concider that kind of lose a win and that kind of win a lose.

I have no idea how to fix it though, give the CV MGs/MLs and then it could be whored, of course, that'd be risky, but to have it effective at anti-ninja <cencored>s, then it would be effective in combat.
Maybe weak MGs/MLs and a warning system that will detect any enemys within Lvl3 turret range...
Maybe, even go the way of NS and have a button a commander under attack can push and have their team spawn near the CV.

theBlind
06-03-2006, 06:07 PM
If you can't defend your base, you deserve everything you get.

Think about it this way - in these games, there are two primary strategies - rush and buildup.
A well-exectued rush will kill a buildup before it really starts (or get a serious headstart in terms of terrain).
So, what is the counter to a rush? A single grenadier that kills your CV.

This is *not* go-out-and-frag CS.
This is about teamwork and planning. If you can't plan for the eventuality of a ninja, well then you made a serious mistake and you are paying the price.

Oh and if no-one on your team wants to take the duty of defending and building your base but you worry about a ninja, well guess who just drew basebuilding duty?

dizzyone
06-03-2006, 06:23 PM
and for these reasons i want to withdraw my opinion about buildlimit being a bad idea, for now its seems to be a god bless since games can be far too chaotic without it.

FalconX
06-03-2006, 06:24 PM
My only comments are that infantry rockets should have a max flight time, the comm tanks hull should have more health/be more resistant to the engi kit, and having the comm tank unbuilt should send out a warning.

Other than that, do a better job defending your base.

Ermm ok!
06-03-2006, 06:45 PM
i agree with dizzyone for once. All thought he is a total douchebag for using this technique he is right ;)

People are relying too heavily on "big" guns and cheap tactics which are available too early on in the game , instead of using skill and stratergy.

Whats needed really is a good brainstorm on what needs balancing to make the game more playable. And as the mod is still in its infancy im sure this will come in good time.

Theres nothing wrong with any of the tactics mentioned come to think of it , its just the technology applied is a bit lame. Rushing your apponants base is perfectly acceptable , but being able to run right upto it and build turrets is lame.

Ninja`ing a CV is also acceptable , providing a small group can doit without the aid of an infintite supply of grenades or an AI controlled rocket launcher.

Weapons such as the artillery tank should reflect the amount of time and money put into them , and as it stands i think it should take alot longer to get arti and nukes.

What id really like to see is a bigger middle game , not just a rapid jump from opening moves to a sudden death.

dizzyone
06-03-2006, 07:03 PM
yeh it just seems to bit of a ping pong effect

(what im going to say here is not how i feel about it, its just how most games seem to go and what most people think about it)
nf teams riflemen dont do the job, commander goes for level3 first, uses them offensively in combination of engineers, because why would you go riflemen if you can kill easier with the engineer smg and actually build turrets offensively.
Then you have the BE that can basicly only respond by also making level3 turrets and use them offensively, since tanks are just too much of an risk and cost a lot of money which in a lot of cases you dont have.
its just a very annoying cycle because people still want to win and these are the only options they have in an incompetent team or incompetent commander. I see this happen a lot and you just get caught up in the action and have to follow no matter how boring it actually is.

Then you end up with one team having no ground, except their base and loads of turretspam, they arent winning but they can pump out tanks to try and do something, and the winning team that cant really go trough the spam, also would be a bit unfair to keep the game going too long, so arty would be the best option to cut trough the turretspam defence and end it.

The cv might have low health, compared to every other game (ta and ns, the ones i know) and how it usually ends up, one light tank pwning the crap out of the cv 5 minutes ingame, or 4 mines and 3 mortars, or one ml built by engineer.
But forcing these changes would only make a leaking defence more bulletproof and sending everyone more into a lost battleground of turretspamming, grenadespamming, scout sniping and be ar raping team covered by arty and a few light weights, and like 5% fair tank battles. Ofcourse I like this game still because I have had enough good experiences to know better but the average game seems to end up in the same ol laming because people are forced into it.

edit: and I find that this is one of the things i would actually want to read a full 5 page article about from the devs, i know thats not going to ahppen, even if it would be something probly just the same amount as falconX just did. I could also just be ranting on and not giving any actual facts that matter in anyway or need to be cleared up because of the plans the devs have, I still would like to read some feedback on the matter (not to discuss neccesarily)

edit2: sry for raiding your thread abit, but for me right now and for other people too ninja'ing is the only way to still win a game that was decided after 5 minutes

^Dee^
06-03-2006, 07:18 PM
Ninjaing is always a lame way to end a game.

Beerdude26
06-03-2006, 07:27 PM
Although it is mighty funny to see a command vehicle go up 20 feet into the air.

OutlawFurey
06-03-2006, 07:32 PM
I remember the first time I went ninjaing... it was very rewarding to see the command vehicle totally roll over, except it went back onto it's wheels x.x

Stu
06-03-2006, 09:04 PM
It's fun to ninja a comm but sucks when yours gets ninja'd.

L3TUC3
06-03-2006, 09:06 PM
What's keeping the com from moving the tank behind a building?

Revolver
06-03-2006, 10:01 PM
Moving comm, paying attention, I don't know, even someone spawning in base could've walked past the CV. Lord knows I do it every once and a while.

Irritates me when people suggest game changes because they aren't playing well.

OutlawFurey
06-03-2006, 10:07 PM
bah, my luck is that I can't really stay behind and defend the base. Everytime I think to do that, the rest of my team is taking their sweet time getting out and capturing res nodes. And of course, when I go out to cap resnodes, everyone else does it and we have a chance of being ninjaed -_-;

Jn.
06-03-2006, 10:20 PM
Maybe give the CV player controlled ML and MG guns that require him/her to get out of comm view and can only be used at base, maybe within a certain radius of a barracks???? Eh what the hell am I talking about I am so tired.

Chahk
06-03-2006, 11:33 PM
If you leave the Comm Vehicle unattended and/or allow enemy to get close enough to ninjaneer it, while the entire team (including the Comm) pays no attention to the "Commander is under attack!" prompt, then your team deserves to lose the round. Period.

mr_quackums
06-04-2006, 12:13 AM
the com tank should come with (or be able to buy) some sort of weaponry. something that is anti personel and antitank, but not anti building, either bio mg or plasma mg comes to mind.

by the way, douchebag was used 11 times in the first post.

dizzyone
06-04-2006, 04:20 AM
comm is under attack doesnt always work sadly

theBlind
06-04-2006, 04:27 AM
the com tank should come with (or be able to buy) some sort of weaponry.
It does. They are called MG turrets and they come at 50 res a piece :)

Sure they won't stop any dedicated attacker at level1. But they provide you with all the early warning you need and make sure that the enemy can NOT just walk into your base.

Ermm ok!
06-04-2006, 04:28 AM
I totally agree with you , couldnt have put it better ;)

Check out my poll on "how long should a game last" , i think thats where we need to start.

Bishop Gantry
06-04-2006, 07:46 AM
Join squad
get turret uppgrade
drop turret
uppgrade
uppgrade
commander
drop some reses

zachtos
06-05-2006, 07:36 AM
sorry, "ninja" attacks are a valid strategy. there are counters to every thing. I shouldn't have to tell you how to counter that, and don't forget, your comm tank has wheels!

cloudhopper
06-05-2006, 10:56 AM
As comm you can drop as many turrets at the base as you want. it doesn't mean there gonna get built. Most people are out securing resource points, building forward base's/defense's, fighting, and wasting time sneaky into the enemy base to ninja the enemy CV. All of which are things they should be doing to win the game. Except for wasting time sneaking/ninjaneering the enemy CV. Why because it only takes a little bit of effort to prepare a defense agaisnt the ninja, or respond to counter it. Which means the ninja just wasted the time it took to cross the map, sneak around the enemy, and sneak into the base. Alternate scenario: the time to order the jeep, navigate it across the map, bypass the ml turrets and the walls, and cost of the jeep(80-500+). Time and resource(human, money) that could have been spent to help the team build and fight. When the ninja fails they try again and again and again. Wasting wasting wasting and then if finally succeeding wasting everyones time ending a game that was just starting to become alot of fun.

Ninjaneering the CV is easily stopped. But this does not happen because everyone is focussed on the other aspects of the game over looking something as simple as building a turret or two. The commander sometimes doesnt even notice till its too late because the are caught up in building, researching, and giving commands the warnings and signs of a ninja can be easily missed by a commander. Sometimes theres not even a commander and no one knows or seems to care because they are having so much fun.

My whole point here is that it is not a valid strategy. It can be easily stopped, but isn't only because of the inherent quirks of an online multiplayer game. If the ninja were skillfully circumventing properly planed and laid out defense's and sensor's then I'd be impressed and accept this a valid tactic. Yet that situation, "the super fotress", rarely manifests itself in empires. And is limited by the types and functionality of the defenses that a team can emplace.

The sensors that can be placed like camerra's and the radar. Dont work half the time. When they do see something they just show up in the mini map which can be overlooked , missed, and unclear(cause its so small and jumbled). Or the diamonds pop up and thats not always a clear indication of range and location. ofcourse this information is only relevant to the perspective of the veiwer. Most peopl are on theyre way out of the base and concerned with were theyre going. The commander is the only one who is immediately concerned about his own arse and location. He's busy doing a million other things. When in the comm veiw im not even sure those diamonds. Even show up.

There needs to be a verbal/visual warning that says an enemy is pressent when a camera/radar near a commander spots an enemy.

The commander under attack warning needs to be more clear for the commander when in comm view.

The commander should be given a new option of dropping a limited number of pre-built items. All within the perimeter of a location defined by an area around a new structure well call an "perimeter controller". Once placed it will exist till destroyed or recyled. If destroyed or recycled it can not be placed for another two minutes. And all allready placed items will still count towards the limits even when a new one is built. Only one "perimeter controler" can be place at a time and only by the commander. When the "perimeter controller" is place it would enable the commander to drop 4 pre-built sensors, cameras or radars in any proportion they chose. 2 "level2" MG turrets and 2 "level2" ML turrets. Neither of which can be further upgraded or down graded. "pre-built" means they do not have to be built.
Why? Because people dont help or have time to build defences and the commander has no time to do it himself.

This new option would enable the comm to set up a proper defence agaisnt ninja's with out the help of the team. And this number of turrets within a limited radius will not have to much of a significant effect agaisnt conventional attacks on the base or the comm.

An alternative would be to let the commander drop 2 "prebuilt" sensors and 2 "prebuilt" turrets at the level at which all turrets are curently upgraded to by research. Without having to place a preliminary structure like a "perimeter controler".

EDIT: im not sure if a structure like the "perimeter controller" should come prebuilt itself. since you are getting all that "prebuilt" fire power( 4 turrets) once the perimeter controller is placed. So I was thinking that it should be the only part of this scheme that would have to be built. What do you think?
Also I figure the "perimeter controller" shoud be a small, turret sized, radar like looking thingy.

EDIT: I was just thinking that some revisions should be made to further limit the potential abuse for this system to be used offensively. (1) If the "perimeter control" is destroyed all systems asociated with it should cease to function untill another "perimeter control" is placed. (2) Instead of having 2 "level2" MG turrets and 2 "level2" ML turrets. Reduce the amount of ML turrets too 1. My primary concern is that having 2 "level2" ML turrets in early game is to much defense power. The initial reasoning for having 2 "level2" ML turrets was to counter ninjaneer jeep rushes. 1 "level2" ML turret should be enough to do this. Other revision I have thought of was to have the 4 sensors all be cameras and make it so that they can be placed a little further out from the "perimeter control" yet still have the turret place ment limit further in. Have a slightly extended range radar integrated into the "perimeter control" itself as well as a camera.

EDIT: Even better than using the existing turrets in the game would be to add specialized turrets designed primarily to defend against ninjas. A smaller version of the MG turret that can track targets faster and even hit things at point blank range, it would still have the same range as the normal mg turret, do less damge but have a higher rate of fire. An ML turret that can track targets faster, targets like jeeps, fires 4 smaller guided warheads at the same time for a better chance too hit the target, but each warhead is half as strong as the standard ML missle, rate of fire would be equal to the other ML turrets. Has the same range as a level2 ML turret, but structurally is not as strong.

EDIT: The perimeter system could give warnings when any of its componets are being attacked. As well as identify which one in particular is under attack. visually and audibly.

MrBojangl3s
06-05-2006, 12:04 PM
The 'perimter controller' idea seems cool, because you can't really use that offensively if the controller isn't prebuilt, unless you manage to get the controller up, and then keep the turrets alive long enough; meh, it would be hard but you could use it.

Also, the sound buffer should be extended devs! Right now, if a "Commander under attack" sound is about 4ms into playing, and someone says "I need a medic!" or some other random thing, you won't hear the commander under attack. Or, if they both play at the same time, it's jumbled and is just ignored.

One time I was comming, and I had put 1 mg and 1 ml turret near the CV, for anti-ninja, with a few turrets outside the base. The game had continued for a long time, and was at a standstill between our team with most of the map but the other team with nukes and a heavy base defense (entire thing was walled!). I let someone else comm, (Kobalt) who did a great job moving us closer to the enemy. However, there was a building limit, which was the source of this standstill. We had the res nodes, but couldn't build refs on them without sacrificing defenses. I told Kobalt there were 2 turrets near CV for anti-rush, and he recycled them to help us. We were doing pretty good, and making it near the base, when all of the sudden defeated. We got ninjaed, and it was because we couldn't even build a good base. Building limit is the gayest thing in the world. Evar. I can see how a moderate limit would be ok, maybe for emp_money, but not for the huge maps.

zachtos
06-05-2006, 03:10 PM
I believe they are working on fixing/implementing "enemy/friendly comm under attack" warnings. Radars do show enemy units in base once every few seconds.
A good way to stop ninjas.
1. place a U shape wall around the comm tank, with the rear of the tank covered and the front exposed.
2. place a --- wall near the U exit that blocks direct shots but allows you to pull out so you can escape.
3. place a few ML/MG turrets near the entrances
4. place your own radar or camera based on the time in the game in the perimeter or become a grenadier and lay mines in front of the entrance.
X=turrets
solid line =walls
T= comm tank
M=mines

XX----XX
M...M...M
.X| T |X
....\_/


this is what I do and I have only been ninja'd once ever, and that was when I did not build my safety box.

dizzyone
06-05-2006, 05:03 PM
yeh looks alright, but ninjaing isnt really a problem if you ask me

Aurora
06-05-2006, 06:20 PM
I have just won about 10 times during the last few days, many of the times in a row of rounds, by building a VF, then an APC, and then sending the whole team in the APC right in the heart of the enemy base, and it doesn't take 10 seconds for the barracks to go down. Their own people were scattered aroudn the map trying to scout or build refineries, while we literally annihilated the base during the first one or two minutes of gameplay.

My newly invented tactic was learned by the enemy commanders afterwards, though, which resulted in what we have began calling blitzkrieg. Both teams rushed here and there and built new bases, while old ones were being taken down. Main bases shifted to opposite locations on the map when both of us commanders tried to APC-rush each other, and I had to keep driving my CV into safer locations. During 10 minutes of gameplay, the main base (barracks + armory + VF) had changed places 3 times.

All resources went to tanks and artillery, and if we did not keep moving, the enemy would have destroyed all of our barracks, and vice versa. Starting to build defense would have taken money away from tanks, and it would be wasted anyway, since staying in one place would just have resulted in a quick ninja rush that would have left us with no bases at all. So everybody went across the map in a chaos. What currently would have been eg. barracks surrounded by a turret farm, could have easily been an enemy base including barracks and VF, in less than 2 minutes

My point is, that you just have to get used to rushing and ninja'ing. What would be the fun in knowing how to counter a tactic before it has even commenced? It's rock-scissors-paper, but you can always try putting defense and rush in a balance. A better commander will obviously defeat a weaker one, if the weaker one isn't even slightly prepared. The rush tactic enforces the usage of walls and few turrets as the first things to do. Especially building walls to prevent the APC rushes could have given the other team better odds to win the match.

dizzyone
06-05-2006, 07:12 PM
dude the BE comm that match was a noob. Both of your 'stragies' are flawed.


Too bad the 11th game was against me ;p

Private Sandbag
06-23-2006, 06:25 PM
I have just won about 10 times during the last few days, many of the times in a row of rounds, by building a VF, then an APC, and then sending the whole team in the APC right in the heart of the enemy base, and it doesn't take 10 seconds for the barracks to go down. Their own people were scattered aroudn the map trying to scout or build refineries, while we literally annihilated the base during the first one or two minutes of gameplay.

My newly invented tactic was learned by the enemy commanders afterwards, though, which resulted in what we have began calling blitzkrieg. Both teams rushed here and there and built new bases, while old ones were being taken down. Main bases shifted to opposite locations on the map when both of us commanders tried to APC-rush each other, and I had to keep driving my CV into safer locations. During 10 minutes of gameplay, the main base (barracks + armory + VF) had changed places 3 times.

All resources went to tanks and artillery, and if we did not keep moving, the enemy would have destroyed all of our barracks, and vice versa. Starting to build defense would have taken money away from tanks, and it would be wasted anyway, since staying in one place would just have resulted in a quick ninja rush that would have left us with no bases at all. So everybody went across the map in a chaos. What currently would have been eg. barracks surrounded by a turret farm, could have easily been an enemy base including barracks and VF, in less than 2 minutes

My point is, that you just have to get used to rushing and ninja'ing. What would be the fun in knowing how to counter a tactic before it has even commenced? It's rock-scissors-paper, but you can always try putting defense and rush in a balance. A better commander will obviously defeat a weaker one, if the weaker one isn't even slightly prepared. The rush tactic enforces the usage of walls and few turrets as the first things to do. Especially building walls to prevent the APC rushes could have given the other team better odds to win the match.


yeah, these are really good games. it's fast paced and requires a good team, but it could work well.

BUT.

I have the ultimate solution to stop all ninjas forever. I'm not talking about rushes because those are FAIR and good ways to end the match.

THIS: is the ultimate way to stop one man engineer ninja assault people. be prepared.














ready yet? you will be









whoa! not there yet. this honestly isn't a joke post. you just need to














appreciate it's greatness.










THIS IS IT:
a limit of 5 meters ALL THE WAY AROUND your Command Vehicle as to where ENEMY walls can be placed. this means that you can still wall in your comm vehicle if you want to. it means you can STILL trap comm vehicles if you are fast. but you CAN'T just build tiny walls and trap the comm forever, beause within 5 meters he has room to manover. technically, using 2 Engineers it would be possible to make a ring around the CV, but that requires 2 people and would be difficult to do before the comm has made a gettaway.

blizzerd
06-26-2006, 06:42 PM
appreciate it's greatness.


lol, your an ass you know that?

mr_quackums
06-28-2006, 01:08 AM
i like that idea...alot

Deiform
06-29-2006, 03:41 PM
Seriously tho , on a serious note here. This type of game is no fun. You get settled into a game , its fairly balanced then Bluuuarweerrghhhhh some russian guy with a dodgy accent is breaking up all the fun and all you get to look at is the score bored and aload of douche bags saying "WTF WOAHHH PWNED I TOTALLY ML TURRET / GRENADE SPAMMED YOUR CV"

I don't have a russian accent....and I ninja quite a lot..amazing how undefended a comm vehicle is left although i tend to go for the barracks or radar first..